Bob White

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for the day, Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Ed, you tell us what the handbook says "actively participate" means and then ask any questions as to the parts you do not understand and I will try to explain them. Fair enough? Bob White

Don't expect anyone to listen just because you talk at them Ed. There is a terrific book called "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk." It is not about their not listening. It is about our communication skills as adults. While there are no guarantees, there are methods that make communicating more effective. Before we give up on the kids let's do our part to do the best we can with the toos we know exist. Telling is rarely leading and it rarely has lasting effects. Scouting teaches 4 styles of leadership. Many adults seem to only use one. Bob White

Acco, you can express your views to your local council president, scout executive, or any member of the national council board in your area (you can get their names from the council office). Or, contact the Relationships division at the National Council Office in Irving, TX. They will welcome your input. Bob White

Absolutely! Cubs promise to "help other people". I do not see how rudeness fulfills that obligation. Telling someone what to do only works for the moment. Until a person, regardless of age, has the opportunity to internalize a decision it will never last. Choice must be personal to have a personal effect. Bob White

Merlyn, You keep using discriminatory as a bad word. It is not. When you tell a child not to play in the highway you are discriminating. You make a determination on the value of playing in the street based on characteristics you determine as good or bad. The BSA's Charter conditions are not percieved as bad by the BSA for the BSA. Neither the Us Government or the US Supreme Court have determined them as bad for the BSA. Whether or not they are bad for a specific chartering organization is left to that organization to decide for themselves. You are welcome to file suit against any charting organization you wish to see scouting removed from but do not expect the BSA to say "no" to any organization willing to uphold it's values and policies. As far as the relationship between the US government and the military I am happy to report that all is well and strong. To date every single court action against the federal government regarding its support of scouting has been determined in favor of the government and scouting. I expect there will be other attempts and I expect the same results. Interestingly enough for the military to defend these lawsuits claiming that they illegally sponsor scouting with tax-payers money, they must use taxpayers money to defend themselves. Still no court has found them to be doing anything illegal. It would seem the frivilous lawsuits are actually abusing the tax payers more than either the military or the BSA are accused of doing. Bob White

Hi Laurie, Please allow me a different point of view. The reson that your directive to the scout only lasted five minutes was that for him to behave was a choice you made and not a choice he made. Until the scout accepts the proper behaviour as one he chooses to do, your effect on him will only be temporary at best. A more scout-like method would have been to talk with the scout to see what he understood his promise to "help other people at "all" times meant to him and if he thought his treatment of others was in keeping with the promise he made to himself and others. Than ask him what a more scoutlike behaviour would be. If the scout is unable to understand what scout-like behaviour is then you need to involve his parents. Until the scout chooses to behave, no amount of "telling" will have an effect. Bob White

The Green tie (and let's not forget the tan tie that came before it) are no longer "current" uniform pieces. The problem was not the uniform look or any hint of military styling. The problem was fading of the pants and shirt. When the uniform was new the tie looked great. But depending on exposure to the sun, length of wear, type of detergent, water quality, etc. etc. the shirt and pants faded and the ties no longer matched in color and no longer looked as good. If my five-year old pants were the same color they were over 300 wearings ago I would still be wearing my dark green tie with them. Bob White

NWscouter, Just for accuracy, the uniform rule allowing for temporary patches to be displayed on the back of the merit badge sash goes back long before the mid-eighties. Bob White

Bob, that is not a charter transfer. That is the original charter organization releasing it's unit numbers to the council to be reassigned. There is no such thing as a charter transfer. Some people may erroneously refer to it as that but there is no administrative form or procedure for such a transaction (DS do you agree?) there is only a charter being ended and a new charter being formed with the membership transfering to the new charter. Bob White

Several regulars and even some new names have private messaged me asking if everything was OK and why I was not posting. My apologies for having D Steele bend the truth slightly for security reasons. My family and I were on an 18-day vacation that including several sights in the Southwest and a week stint on the faculty at Philmont Training Center. I did not want to broadcast the news that my home would be unoccupied for such an extended period of time. My thanks to a local Eagle Scout who kept an eye on things and kept the lawn mowed. We had a great time. Our touring included seeing family in Muskogee, OK., touring the National BSA office and seeing the NEW Fieldbook being produced (expected to hit the printers in Oct.), touring the new National Scout Museum and seeing a group of Israeli Scouts perform, over to Fort Worth Stockyards to pick out some cowboy hats and have a REAL steak dinner, down toward San Antonio for a day at Schlitterbahn (the Country's #1 water park), then over to Carlsbad Caverns for two days of hiking and exploring, up to Cimarron and a fantastic week at the Philmont Training Center as faculty lead for a Boy Scout Leader Seminar and then across country to home with a brief overnight in the metropolis of Wakeeney, KS. It's good to be home. I feel refreshed, re-energized and filled with scouting info that will trickle out as the topics appear. I hope everyone had as great a summer as the White family has had. School starts here in a few days and we are ready to recruit Cubs. See you in the forum, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Active" in Boy Scouts is what the current Boy Scout Handbook descibes it as. BW

Packsadlle, As with the scouts, It would be preferably with adults to send them back to their parents for retraining. BW

As DS points out you are not transfering the charter, you are transfering each individual person's membership. Only the chartering organization can approve or negate a charter relationship with the local council and BSA. The members can go to another existing charter but do not have the authority to cancel an organizations relationship to scouting. Bob White

You were doing so well up to a point packsaddle. There is no intimidation going on from either side. The Episcopal church just plain likes the BSA movement. They see this disagreement in membership as a minor point in the big picture of scouting's benefits. A point which they feel can be worked through in the long run. They are willing to continue a dialogue within the BSA until that time. It is a very mature position. My explaination is based on a discussion with a repesentative of the Episcopal Church, He is a uniformed volunteer, Eagle Scout, and assigned to serve scouting as a Chaplain at PTC for three months that summer. I saw no signs of intimidation and he memntioned none during a prolonged and frank discussion. Do you have any facts at all to back up you remarks? Bob White

I think these create a number of terrific opportunities for Boy Scouts to interact with Webelos dens as instructors for these new requirements, as well as opportunities for troops to bond with Webelos dens through shared troop activities. Bob White

Hi Anne, I recieved your pm and am happy to reply, however I don't know if I can be much help. I am fairly ignorant of the methods and goals of the Girl Scout program and I am not sure that the patrol methods of Boy Scouting that are designed for 5th graders and up (let alone for boys) would be usable methods for third grade girls. As a father of a son, and having grown up with 4 brothers, my knowledge of of the female pschy is limited to my wife, and as any honest married man would tell you, that means I know nothin' about how women think. If the needs and characteristics of third grade girls are similar to third grade boys I would have to say that the patrol method would be inappropriate to use. Which is why third grade boys still operate under a Den system with two adult leaders. Sorry I could not be of more help, Bob White

Other than the price of their toys going up, and their ability to learn seems to be accelerating faster than my own, I see very little difference in today's youth and the characters and characteristics I recall from my own youth back in the 50s and 60s. I think kids are terrific! I can however think of several adults who need severe corrective actions. Bob White

Evmori, There are many positive examples of the proper use of the "Directing" style of leadership. When a PL sees a scout about to touch poison ivy and says, "Stop! Dont do that!" When a Lifeguard tells a group to "buddy-up". When an adult tells a scout to stop bullying another person. These are all proper uses of directing and by no mere coincidence all have to do with safety. Bob White

Little Billie, Last summer at Philmont Training Center I asked one of the camp chaplains, an Episcoplalian minister, about the controversy already brewing in the Episcopal Church. He said that although there were many who disagreed with the membership stance of the BSA, it was the opinion of the church leadership that the tremendous good accomplished by the scouting program far outweighed this one point of disagreement. He went on to say that while the church will continue to discuss the membership rules within the BSA they have every intention of following the BSA's regulations and continuing as members in good standing with the Boy Scout movement. I do not see how their rules for eligibility as a Bishop alters their ability to support the rules of scouting. Until that happens I would expect them to continue to act as a chartering organization, unless the BSA determines otherwise. Bob White

From what little I know about it...a revised JLT course was just field tested this last week in Detroit, MI. From there, I'm sure there will be adjustments made and if needed other field tests. Once the syllabus is finalized, published and distributed it should reach councils in time to implement next summer. BW

A scout is not required, nor can he be required to use other scouts or his troop to do his Eagle project. he is required to plan and give leadership to the project. No specifc workforce or size of workforce can be required according to the advancement policies of the BSA. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The only leeway locals have is not to sign off on certain requirements that have not been done up to standard." There is no stantard other than meeting the requirement as stated in the handbook. A scout does not have to do it as good as the leader, as good as a nother scout, as good as the tester wants it done. He just has to fulfill the requirement. If the handbook says make a list, the scout must make a list. if he has to demeondtarte then he has to demonstrate, As long as he does the skill as described by the handbook in the method described in the handbook he has met the scouting standard. No other standard is appropriate or allowed. Bob White

The troop maintains quality by being aware of who is approved to sign off on testing, not by artificial manipulation of the requirements. The fact that the SM is on the a National committee does not justify altering BSA advancement policies. Rudd rather than take our word for it I invite you to take BSA's. There is a manual called the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures that will support everything we are trying to explain to you hear. Since you are confident that you are not violating BSA rules wold it hurt for you to read the manual? I think you will be surprised. For instance it makes it very clear that once the MB signs the card NO ONE may deny the merit badge. Please take the time to review this manual. It is available for sale at your local council office. Do not expect the DE or Scout executive to know these rules, that is not their function. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

2002 had the highest percentage of scouts reaching eagle in the history of the BSA. A whopping 5%. The core of the problem in my opinion is RuddBaron's perception that the unit committee controls advancement. National council of the BSA controls advancement, through the requirements it sets and the policies it establishes. The unit committee is responsible for reviewing and recognition of the scout. The unit has no authority or right to add to or subtract from any requirement. In the example given of small boat sailing MB. Only the MB counselor can determine when the requirement has been satisfied. A unit committe ahs NO authority in this matter. A scout may use any MB counselor who is registered to do this MB. Rudd's intect is admirable but the methods the unit is using is not appropriate to the rules and regulations set by the BSA. There are appropriate ways to improve the quality of instruction, the degree of learning and the, skill s of scouts.Altering the reqirements is not the way to do it. Respectfully, Bob White

It happens a lot. Just shows why they call it DOPE. Bob White