Bob White

"The BSA has no right getting involved in the UU doctrine. They don't get involved in any other religions doctrine!" The BSA does have a right to exclude any organization from sponsoring scouting if they refuse to follow the BSA membership standards, and they have the right to determine what values are reflected by the contents and images of the BSA uniforms. The BSA did not tell the UU what thier religious doctrine should be. They told them how their changes would effect their awards eligibility to be displayed on the BSA uniform and how it would require the BSA to bar a Unitarian Church from being a BSA charter organiation. I am contunually concerned by the haste of many board participants to make judgements against the BSA based on rumor, misinformation, and fabrication of information. Bob White

"True but that still doesn't require a Scout to do anymore than what's in the book!" That is pretty much the point Ed. The Scout only has to fulfill the requirements that are in the book. The Boy Scout Handbook is the publication of the BSA and communicates to the scout the requirements for the ranks as established by the BSA. The scout only has to do the requirements that are in the book. Bob White

The same rights that allow the Unitarian Church to determine its own membership policies and religious awards requirements allows the BSA to control its membership, its uniforming and every aspect of its program that the BSA chooses to excercise control over. Bob White

In the first three ranks of Boy Scouting activity is achieved through the individual requirements of the ranks. Actions such as "demonstrate", "tell", "show", "while participating" all require activity on the part of the scout. No further activity level is required or warranted, it exists through the accomplishment of the rank. Bob White

I simply agreed with you that it is an option. The requirement places no more emphasis on one option than on the other. If you look at the over all numbers of cubs who completed their rank you will see that the vast majority opt not to earn the religious awrd irregardless of their chosen faith. This is a non-issue. Bob White

They are separate in that the BSA does not determine the requirements. As you ponit out the earning of the religious award is an optional activity and the scouts can advancence without having to earn the award no matter what religion they practice. This is a non-issue for a boy whether he is particpating in the Unitarian church, Scouting, or both. A boy who wins a medal for sportsmanship in Little League is not authorized to wear it on his scout uniform. That neither effects his ability to play ball or fully participate in scouts. The issue over the UU religious award is no different. Bob White

I understand what you are saying DS but you are not really measuring the continuation of a unit. The anniversary bar and the continual tenure, measures the sponsorship of the organization. In any unit the adult and youth membership are in a continual state of change. the award is not for being the same unit because it is not the same unit. It is not for having the same number because as councils and districts have consolidated many units staying with the same CO have had to change numbers. The recognition and the measurement is for the length of time that the CO held a charter with the BSA. To allow a unit to retain tenure when changing sponsors is the same as my grandfathers ax. It has been in the family for almost 150-years, we have had to change the head 8 times and the handle 4 times but it is still a great ax. Can you see how when the membership is always changing and the numbers can change and then you allow the CO to change, what in heavens name are you actually measuring? The only possible constant over the decades is who chartered the unit. If we are not going to only recognize one CO at a time then there is no point in tracking the number of years. Bob White

Ed Do you feel you are an active participant on this forum? Do you take part in the success of the board? And yet, you have never physically "attended" anything. You have simply used available communication tools to do your part. I was able to coordinate the skills and participation of three other board members using the leadership styles of scouting and we succeeded in our task without ever physically meeting. Can a PL meet with his APL away from the troop meeting, over the phone or internet, and continue to effectively coordinate the leadership of the patrol? Absolutely! Active is getting the job done. What that means and how it is accomplished will vary in form and content with each scout. A good leader will A) provide a program that scouts will want to attend, and B) recognize the needs and characteristics of each scout and work with them within their own framework. Bob White

I call it a mole hill not because of the number of people involved but because of the almost indiscernible affect that the ability to wear the award has on either program. The fact that it cannot be worn on the scouting uniform does not diminish or restrict the scout's ability to give give service to his church or earn the award. I hope that you are not suggesting that the scout's lack of opportunity to display it on his uniform detracts from his service to God? As a scout I earned a medal from the American Legion as a winner of their "Voice of America" competition. Although the Legion is a huge sponsor of scouting, the medal is not authorized for wear on the Boy Scout uniform. So I did not wear it. There was no disappointmnet on my part. There was no wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth between the BSA and the American Legion. The Boy Scout uniform is for Boy Scout approved awards, the American Legion did not instruct me to display the medal on my uniform in spite of the BSA's rules. The "Voice of America" does not exist for the sake of scouting, nor scouting for the purpose of displaying everyone elses awards. The BSA's program does not change for lack of this one award on a shirt. The values and teachings of the Unitarian church are not altered by their inability to have a medal displayed on a uniform. The scout did no less a worthy deed for not being able to put someone elses award on the BSA's uniform, nor is his participation in the scouting program altered by one iota. I call it a mole hill because it is. Bob White

I think a lot of the nuances of scouting are not perceived or appreciated by the scouts as youth (my how youth is wasted on the young). It will not be until they get older that they will more fully appreciate the effort and commitment it took on the part of a number of people in order to maintain a program for decades on end. Bob White

I'm sorry you this as a word game, I don't. I see the question about transfering charters and I know that that is not a possibility. You cannot make a promise to one person and then transfer that promise to someone else. You must make that new person a new promise. Charters are a partnership between the BSA and a specific organization not the members of the unit. It cannot be floated around. It either exists or it does not exist. What you are are describing is a unit that has lost communication and cooperation with the organization that started it and so hopes that by picking up stakes and moving to another charter organization the problem will be solved. In most cases this is a short lived solution because the unit half of the problem continues to exist and in short order causes the relationship with the new CO to deteriorate. In the councils I have been in the answer to your question is "no" your unit tenure would not continue. I say this because what is being measured is not the existence of the unit but the length of continual charter between the BSA and the CO that you are leaving behind. Just because the members are transfering to another unit does not mean the original CO could not recruit new members and leadership by the end of the chartering period and continue their partnership with the BSA, unit # and all.

You will find that the boys can do whatever they are tauaght thow to do and given the opportuniity to do. Certainly there are adult responsibilities that the leaders and committee must fulfill from a legal standpoint. But the boys when properly trained can do almost everything needed witin a troop. But having trained adults teaching the junior leaders is the first step in order for the scouts to succeed. Bob White

Actually packsaddle the difference seems to be my ability to determine what has an effect on youth and what doesn't. I do not see the inabilityt to weaqr an unrelated award on a scout uniform as having an impact on the development of youth. However I see the the values, aims and methods of scouting as having very positive impact on youth. Nor do I see this mountain out of a mole hill over the UU as having an impact on either the BSA or on the youth we serve. Bob White

This discussion has gotten just plain silly. The uniform of the Boy Scouts of America belongs to the BSa. They have the right and responsibility to control the way it is worn, when it is worn, who wears it and what goes on it. They have determined that the the Uniterian Church has not met the requirements to have their religious award displayed on the the scout uniform. The BSA did not say that the members of the church could not be scouts, could not earn their churches award or could not wear it on their own clothing, just that it can not be worn on the BSA field uniform. To equate this to repression of race, religion or minorities is irresponsible. The Uniterian church lead the parade in flip-flopping their position several times in the course of the negotiations. The BSA lost confidence in the churches abaility to state what they wanted to do and stick to it, so the BSA made the decision to remove the UU as a chartering organization and to disallow their awards on the field uniform, just as they disallow many other non scouting related awards. The BSA has not infringed on the UU church, their operation or thier choice of beliefs, they have just said that their values and the goals of the BSA no longer share a commonality. Non of which as a thing to do with the topic of this thread. Bob White

I know of no cookie cutter shape that is guaranted to make a good Scoutmaster, or of anyone who stepped into the job and didn't need to learn as they go. I know many good scoutmasters all of whom are different except for one thing, their desire to do a good job. You sound like you have many fine qualities for becoming a scoutmaster. If you have the desire to make a real difference in young peoples lives, take the job. Enjoy, and just like the boys, grow as you go. Good luck, Bob White PS Put the old book on a shelf as a keepsake or donate it to a museum and learn today's scouting program for today's scouts.

sctmom There is only one way to know. BW

Mark, I have never seen a BP book by that title. Here is a site with a complete bibliography of BP's writings. I see nothing by that title there as well. http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-bibliography.htm Bob White

Your very close Laurie. The explaination is vague for a purpose. One that has been discussed before but not wholly accepted by leaders who want to "control" scouts. Active is more than being present at events. it is taking part in the success of the patrol and troop. Sometimes that can even be accomplished without being present through the use of good leadership, planning and communication tools. The important thing again is knowing the needs and charachteristics of each scout. Who is the best person to judge if the scout has met the expectations of the requirement? The scout himself. Talk to the scout. Ask them at the beginning of each rank advancement what being actively involved means to them. Make sure the program keeps the promises made in the Scout Handbook so that the scout has reason ann opportunity to be active. Talk with the scout periodically about his participation, give recognition when it is earned and counseling when needed. When the time comes for advancement you should be able to ask the scout if he feels he has contributed to the success of his patrol and troop and he should, if he is ready to advance, answer positively and give examples to support his opinion. A good leader approaches this through individual knowledge of the scout, and not by the use of blanket attendance numbers. Hope this helps, Bob White

Actually Merlyn I do know what an analogy is and you have failed to provide one. In an analogy an inferrence is made that if two or more things share a commonality in some areas they will be common in others. In your example you fail to show a basic common relationship between Judaism or any religion, and that of atheism or the total lack of religious belief. Without that commonality an analogy cannot be drawn in other relationships. What if the BSA disallowed Jews? The fact is thay do not. What if cats really had nine lives? It's an irrelevent arguement since they do not. The fact is the the ACLU has been unsuccessful now and in the past to affect the Scouting program. Bob White

HHi Laurie, In Wood Badge training a mentor is assigned to you as you develop and carry out your goals. This counselor usually has a staff position of Troop Guide, although they can hold other positions as well. Wood Badge is a valuable to any scout leader in any scouting level and program providing they have completed basic training for their primary scouting responsibility. You bring up a good point that he was not the only child there. The most important reason for being a scout leader is the development of the scout. That is why it is necessary to have enough adults recruited and participating so that the Pack committee can operate events and allow the leaders to work with the scouts. Don't be side tracked by the "when we were young our parents would beat us and we liked it cause it gave us character" mentality that some ill informed leaders may offer you. Being a strong parent and leader doesn't mean you should train children to do what you say "or else". I agree that sometimes a scout needs to go home, but only when his safety or the safety of others is in question. Kids arent stupid they are just inexperienced. They don't always see the ramifications of their behavior. In many instances they have had poor adult role models. Talking with scouts and explaining how actions affect them and others will usually bring about the results you are searching for. Often children try to get negative attention only because it is the only attention they ever get. Try talking, teaching and trusting before telling. I think you will get the results you are looking for and both of you will enjoy it more. Bob White

Don't beat yourself up Laurie, we all make mistakes. The differing element is our willingness to learn and grow rather than trod the same paths repeatedly and expecting to find ourselves arriving at a new location. Get the book I mentioned, and visit our discussion on the 4 styles of leadership. Also check out attending Wood Badge or refreshing the yourself on the styles of leadership with your WB counselor (Troop Guide). There are times when "directing" can be effective. This just wasn't the appropriate time. Bob White

But Merlyn the BSA does not turn away jewish kids. It doesn't even turn away Wicken kids or UU kids. So your point is seriously flawed. The BSA does not exclude any choice of religion, it only turns away those who have not yet to chosen to provide service to God in whatever God means to them. As an atheist you have chosen not to accept a duty to a God at this point in your life. Once you do, you will be closer to eligibility in the BSA. Don't think of it as rejection, think of it as a postponement on your part. Bob White

My point is only that 'what is active' is explained in the handbook not in our personal opinions. don't worry about not having the book with you. The fish will wait. BW

Sorry Ed, I forgot, it's been a couple weeks. You can find the information on page 169 of the Boy Scout Handbook. By the way Ed I don't memorize these things, I look them up as needed. The requirement you speak of first appears in the Star rank requirements. So when I look at the requirements page I see it lists the reference pages next to each requirement. In the future this could help you find the correct information on your own. (just another way we learn to fish for ourselves) Bob White

Not at all NJ. The conversation over the acceptance is a nearly constant one with the national organization. The BSA has made it very clear that the way to address this issue is through the BSA chanels and not through public demonatration which draws attention away from the purpose and accomplishments of the youth. No leader has ever been removed or exiled for expressing an opinion or idea to the BSA in a scout-like manner. Your fear-mongering is unwarranted. Bob White