Bob White

Hi Twocubdad, I don't know what training you have attended up to this point as a leader, but this is not new information. This has been part of basic Cub Scout and Boy Scout leader training for decades. Unless your trainers did not follow the syllabus this was covered as part of your basic training. It is the foundation of the BSA congressional charter. Scouting is to be carried out in cooperation with local civic, educational and religious organizations, who use the scouting program to further achieve the goals of their organizations through the methods and values of the BSA movement. The BSA is multi-denominational in its teachings and membership. That does not mean that the Chartering organizations must be. This is nothing new. As a scout in the 60s and 70s we had several troops that were focused in their membership. We had a Jewish troop chartered by a synagogue for its youth members , a Catholic Pack and Troop for the students at a local Catholic school. The Pack and Troop I was in was only for the students of the public school district we lived in. If this is news to you there might be other fundemental elements of scouting you are missing out on. I recommend you consider New Leader Essentials and the Leader Specific Training for your role in scouting. A better understanding of the program can be a benefit to you and the scouts in your community. Bob White

As you said Acco, chartering organizations can restrict membership to suit the goals and mission of the organization. The most likely reasonfor the Knights of Colombus to make this membership change is because they want to shift the focus of the unit to focus on the teachings and obligations of their church. A miaaion they feel can be best acomplished with a unit all of the same faith. This is not a rare occurence and many units exist that have such singular membership and not all are sponsored by religious organizations. Many schools serve only youth from that school. Hope this helps, Bob White

Exploring is now a part of Learning for Life a program which is separate form the traditional scouting program and is a service of the publications division of the BSA (Boys' Life and Scouting magazines). It has nothing to do with the Boy Scout division which is responsible for Boy Scouts and Venturing. A scout can be a member of the BSA and of another organization be it Exploring, Civil Air Patrol, etc. and work on whatever awards any of those prganizations offer. Being a Boy Scout does not keep you from being in other organizations. If an organization wants to create an award that represents that the wearer earned the BSA's Eagle rank and put in on their uniform the BSA has no reason or authority to keep that from happening. So a boy in a troop, a crew, and an exploring post can advance in all three programs. Hope this helps, bob White

Ron, Your post doesn't tell us if his advancement has been refused at the unit level yet. Presuming it has not here is my suggestion. meet with the scout in a Board of Review ask him if he has satisfied the requirements for active participation and active leadership and to give examples to support his view. If he says no or if he cannot get the board to unanimously agree that all requirements have been met then deny the advancement at this time. In doing so you have a requirement to tell the scout which requirement he has not met and give him a specific action plan that would allow him to meet the requirement (time permitting). The scout is then free to appeal the decision of the board by writing to the council advancement chair. Upon review the council Advancement committee will either uphold the findings of the board or require a new board with a council representative chairing the procedure. Without knowing the exact details the scout would have a 50/50 chance of advancing on appeal. However his chance of a waiver on the activity and leadership requirements are extremely thin. I can tell you from personal conversations with the national director of Boy scout advancement, unless the unit leaders have really screwed up most appeals are rejected, and unless he can produce a written physicians evaluation that shows he is physically or mentally unable to fulfill a requirement then the waiver will not be allowed. The first step is the Board of Review and the sooner the better. Hope this helps, Bob White PS Ron, If you look at past posts, I don't jump on Ed "all the time". But sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. Ed claims to be a trained leader who has even trained others, yet his posts show some very 'unique' methods of leadership that are not at all reflective of the scouting program. Sometimes my patience level with such behavior is overwhelmed. Perhaps it should have been addressed through a private message and I will keep that in mind in the future. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mark, Maybe I can clarify. First, I know the model of using the NFL may not hold up in every aspect but it is close in many ways. As you correctly point out, the teams can set their own practice schedule, just as troops can set their own troop meeting nights and times. But the point is the rules and procedures are set by the national organization. Without that nation control there would no program continuity. Why do franchise operations like McD's, or others work so well? Because people see the name and now exactly what to expect of the product from years of standardized characteristics and procedures. That's why when one location doesn't live up to it's expectations people are so disappointed. Just as scouts come to the program with certain expectations based on the BSA's national reputation and become very disappointed when the unit is not what they were promised in the nationally published handbooks. Another correlation has been made comparing how states can set their own laws. But that is only part of the story. What those posters have failed to mention, or don't realize, is that the state's laws can be more restrictive but not less restrictive than any related federal law. The same is true of local municipalities, that can make laws which are more restrictive but not less restrictive that related state or federal laws. In scouting local units can make rules providing they do not conflict with existing BSA policies. In the area of membership (where some posters are saying they want local options) units are welcome to be more restrictive but not less restrictive than national, just like with local and state governments. Bottom line units have numerous elements where they are basically free to exercise local options except for four areas. Uniforms- although several uniform options are available, many aspects of how and when the BSA uniform is displayed are controlled by national policies. Safety- The Guide to safe scouting has some practices (identified in bold type) which must either be followed or avoided, depending on their specific instruction. Advancement- The advancement program is one of the most misused and abused methods of scouting. National has found it necessary to tightly control advancement at all levels. Membership- The BSA as a national entity has sole authority over the minimum requirements for membership in the BSA. While local units can be more restrictive, they cannot be less restrictive. Outside of these four areas the BSA relies on the integrity and abilities of the adult leaders to use the methods and program elements of scouting to provide a successful scouting program to all eligible youth. Local options in these areas would make it impossible to retain a nation program with national similarities and identity. National BSA is not going to relinquish it's responsibilities to the national program by allowing local options that are less restrictive than their own. It would be tha same as the federal government passing laws then telling states and cities that they don't have to abide by them. I hope this helps to clarify things, Bob White

Good thread topic Laurie! When I returned to scouting as an adult leader I was only 22. Some of the scouts in the unit I served were only a few years younger than me. At that time I was very comfortable to be on a first name basis with them, and them with me. We did have an agreement though that around parents or adults other than myself and the ASM they would refer to us as Mr._____. As the years widened the age gap I have become more comfortable with the scouts calling me Mr.________. I always ask the scouts when possible how they would prefer to be adressed and I will usually follow that choice. (there have been some nickname choices that I would not use). As far as the handshake we (by that I mean the troop) try to be consistent with using the left hand with scouts and scouters and right hand with non-scout members. We try to teach good maners through setting the example and scoutmaster minutes and personal conferences. Bob White

Rooster, Call it pompous if you want, but I'm not guessing and I'm not making it up as I go along. Posters who know me understand that I'm just irritated with the trash being spread here. Rooster how can you say that you think the BSA should dictate to others what their stance must be on homosexuality, yet you don't feel that others should be allowed to dictate to the BSA what their stance should be? You can't have it just one way Rooster and the BSA understands that. The BSA wants the same right of self-determination that the other private groups want and deserve. I appreciate that you support the BSA on this issue, but the reasons you use to support your point do not reflect what the BSA has stated as their position. In fact in many ways it presents just the image and bias that the BSA does not support. If you really want to support the program on this issue you would do far more good if you did it for the right reasons. Bob White

Laurie The requirement is interpreted in the Boy scout Handbook. It is open to flexible application based on the needs and characteristics of the scout. Two examples, scout #1 is not involved in any extra-curricular activities, attends every meeting, refuses any opportunity to take a leadership role, does not offer input during troop or patrol discussions and does not make use of advancement opportunities. Doesn't cause trouble, just likes to come and play games and campout. This scout does not contribute to the success of the patrol or troop and is not "active" in scouting. Scout #2 is the SPL who for the last 3 months of his 6 month tenure is involved in sports at school. He is unable to make Troop meetings due to his practice schedule and meets keep him from most the outdoor activities. He keeps in touch regularly at school with his assistant and the troop meetings and outings always have a planned agenda. He is currently working on three merit badges with teachers at his school. Even though I have rarely seen him in almost 12 weeks he is contributing to the success of the unit and is active in his contributions and pursuit of scouting. How do you make this determination. You talk with the scouts. You find out about their lives, you teach them about responsible citizenship and how it relates to being a member of a group, and you reflect with them on their contribution to the patrol and troop. Hope this helps, Bob White

In a separate issue from the religious awards the national offices of the Wiccan church and the UUA were informed by the BSA that because they refuse to abide by the membership regulations of the BSA, specifically to reject the membership of avowed atheists and homosexuals, they would not be able to charter units of the BSA. I do not know if they have canceled existing charters or will just have them lapse at years end. Bob White

"tell me exactly what specific values does the BSA require chartering organizations to adhere to." The BSA does not require a chartering organization to abide by any values other than those expressed in the Scout Oath and Law, and only to the extent of what they teach to the scouts and support to the scouts. "Obviously, they don't currently require organizations to denounce homosexuality." No they do not, nor will they in the future. They do not approve of the practice as an acceptable role modeling of the scouting values but they do not denounce homosexuals or put forth effort to deny them their lawfull rights. (keep in mind membership in scouting is not a right). The BSA expects the same respect in return. "what values do they impose on COs" None, and they have no intention to. CO's choose to use scouting because they share the same values and goals. They invite scouting in. The BSA does not force their way in or force their values on others. If you share the values and fulfill your voluntary obligation to follow the scouting programs, methods and policies then we have a partnership. If you do not or cannot fulfill your obligations as a CO then we do not have a partnership. The BSA does not impose its self on any organization. I, and I would hope others, have no interest in self-flaggellation on your part or anyone elses. A far more prefered action would be to ask questions rather than make make assumptions about what the scouting program is or isn't. Read some scout resources, make an effort to talk to people who have some actual knowledge of the program and it's positions (like national reps and local professionals, or volunteers who are active beyond the council boundaries). A lot of bandwidth is wasted here on total tripe. Bob White

"That being said, they could create a policy that establishes a baseline of acceptable values that chartering organizations must adhere to. While the BSA does not currently have such a policy," See now here we go again! Posts based on assumption and lack of information that only fuels more rhetoric. Of course the BSA has such a tool. It's called the Shared Responsibilities Agreement and it is in the charter renewal process each year. The agreement must signed by the Institutional Head or the Charter Organization Representative, In it the responsibilities of the CO are outlined and agreed to. Many of these posts would be enhanced if people asked questions rather than make unqualified statements. Like "does the BSA hold CO's to specific responsibilities in order to remain CO's". Pardon me if I sound a bit miffed but all this spewing of falsehoods is getting really irritating. BW

NJ A number of posters including you tossed around the phrase "owned and operated a Girl Scout troop" if in fact you were aware that only the Girl Scouts owned and operated their units you made no attempt to rectify that misinformation. I not only denied your assumption about where my support for the BSA came from (another misrepresentation on your part) I explained that it came not from flipant remark you offered of "oh well, if that's the decision, let's move on, when is the next district training committee meeting?", but from actual knowledge of the program and the facts of the isssue. Two elements you and some others seem to avoid like the plague. Your posts are rife with opinion but little knowledge, giving your thoughts volume but no substance. Lets through a little logic at just one 'opinion' reoccurring here. That of local option. How does an organization have a national program AND local option when it comes to policies? Imagine the NFL if every team could determine its own rules. McDonalds if every restaurant could fix whatever they chose however they chose. The Military if every base determined its own function and policies. I can tell you with absolute certainty that as a national organization the policies, methods, and membership of scouting will always be determined by the nation executive committee of the BSA. There is no other way to insure a "national" program. Will a simple fact like this sway the "wish it were" or "should be" crowd? Probably not. Continue to "wish" about what you want the BSA to be, but try this experiment to determine the value and benefit of wishing. Hold both hands out in front of you. Now wish about allthe things you think scouting should do and put those wishes in one hand. Now spit into the other hand and see which one fills up first. Make your wishes on your birthday, the rest of the time let's be part of the world of what is, and start focusing on delivering the scouting program as it is designed or make room for folks who will. Bob White

A scout is Helpful, as proven by NJ who now feels he has the ability to speak for me, and others, I presume so that we no longer need to participate. Here I thought I spoke based not on Roberts Rules but as a fairly well informed participant in scouting who understood the issues involved and the goals, methods, and policies of the program. But don't let that side track this conversation you fellas just go ahead and make stuff up as you go along. I'll go back to being an entertained observer.

Its bad enough the BSA gets misrepresented around here let's not start on the Girl Scouts as well. It would really be swell if folks took some time to get some facts. There is no such thing as the Girls Scouts being sponsored by a government agency or any other kind of group. The Girl Scouts do not use a chartering organization system. All Girl Scout units are owned by the Girl Scouts. They just meet at various locations, they are not owned by the location. Sheesh! Bob White

Rooster, How exactly does the BSA decide to remove an CO before they do anything wrong? BW

This is what I mean about you spreading false information. The Episcopal Church using their national representatives in the BSA have expressed that they disagree with the membership rules but will abide by them. The UUA Church said publicly that they disagreed with the BSA and would not abide by the membership rules. The Episcopal church remains as a member in good standing, the UUA church does not. Your misrepresentations of fact does a disservice to all parties involved. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The same individual is being identified as a good role model and a bad role model within the same organization." That is incorrect. The school has said he is a good role model. The BSA has said he is not. The school is welcome to their opinion but they do not have the authority to alter the BSA's. Bob White What is the difference between being technically right and being right?

"The requirements don't say "be active in the troop." They simply say, "serve actively . . . for 6 months" He has fullfilled the letter of the requirements but has he met the spirit or the intent of the requirements?" FOG, you are obviously unfamiliar with the advancement requirements as you have confused two separate requirements. Please review a handbook and you will see there are separate requirements for being active in your troop and patrol, and for actively serving in a leadership position. So no, you cannot advance without being active. ED, You really need to read the handbook and get some training. For your amount of time in the program you display minimal comprehension of how a unit functions, the process of advancement and the methods of leadership. In the advancement program a scout 1)learns 2)is tested 3) is reveiwed and 4)is recognized. If you know a way to do these things without attending any meetings or activities than you are not operating a troop scouting program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Where could you have possible drawn that conclusion from packsaddle? I said the that a chartering organization can do anything it wants as far as the BSA is concerned EXCEPT to alter or overrule the authority of the BSA within the BSA program. The CO can hire atheists or homosexuals, they cannot accept them as members of the BSA. They can have as many religious awards with whatever requirements they want, but the cannot decide what can be put onto the BSA's uniform. What part of this can you not understand? Bob White

Ed, If a school (church) that sponsors a cub scout pack hires a homosexual principal (Bishop) is the school (church) in violation of the BSA membership rules? No. Why you ask? Because the School (church) is not saying that they would allow the principal (Bishop) to be a member of the pack, or that they would allow other homosexuals to join the pack. They hired an employee, which has nothing to do with membership in the BSA. No harm, no foul. Should the school (church) decide to extend the acceptance of homosexuals to include offering them membership in the pack then the BSA would become involved. The school (church) would have its ability to be a chartered organization revoked (Wiccan and Unitarian churches). Now do you understand? The BSA is not telling the school or church who they can hire, only who they can allow into the BSA. The BSA is not trying to alter the rules of the school or church, it is just upholding the rules of the BSA within the BSA scout unit. Please let me know what part of this is unclear. Bob White Packsaddle, If you have a comment or question regarding me, feel free to address me directly in your posts. If you were me.... you would have a better understanding of the issue and won't be propagating so much misinformation.

Hear! Hear! Well said brother bird. Let's all follow what the program is, not what we each think it is or should be. (note to self: OGE says it is not the Bob White Scouts of America. Must call national office in Irving to confirm.)

Why Ed? The BSA is not telling the UU who can be members of their church. The BSA is telling them who they can allow as members of the BSA. The BSA is not making conditions to control the church, only setting the conditions for the BSA's own organization which the chuch had signed an agreement to follow (and then the church changed their minds). The same with the religious award. The BSA is only saying that the requirements do not allow for the award to be worn on the BSA uniform not that the Unitarian church cannot have a religious award or what it must include. Bob White

Ed, look at the requirements for Tenderfoot through First Class. How could a scout advance without being present at meetings and activities? How many does he need to be at to advance? Enough to meet the written requirements...no more..no less. The reason cubs have activity requirements is that since any Akela can sign off requirements it would techniquely possible for a Cub to advance without ever attending a meeting if it were not for the activity requirement. In Webelos the son of the Webelos leader would have the same ability if there were not a requirement to attend meetings. That same circimstances do not exist in Tenderfoot to First Class due to the restricions on who can sign and the troop and patrol activities built into the requirements. A Star, Life and Eagle's advancement is based on merit badges and service to community, all of which can be done without meeting or activity attendance. even the requirement for actively serve in a leadership position can be accomplished without meeting attendance depending on the job and troop structure. So the BSA has a time requirement during which the scout needs to show his active participation in patrol and troop activities. Bob White

So Cheffy is it your theory then that what is the right or wrong to do is based not on principles but on lowest cost? BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Interesting question Cheffy, however the Woolrich website shows no such similar coat. the closest is the black and red Heritage Cruiser for $220. If I saw it at $39 my first thought would be that Woolrich ripped off a lot of people to the tune of $181. FScouter, You are very close on your info re: the Philmont Bull. However, nowhere in the BSA uniform literature are you instructed as to the placement of the bull's tail. As a participant at Philmont, either the training center or trek-side you are eligible to wear the bull. Whether the tail is over or under the shoulder seam depends strictly on where you sew it and is not controlled in any way. The story of the tail representing climbing the Tooth is more wive's tale than tradition according to the administration of Philmont and the BSA. Bob White