Bob White

Allow me to edit one line I said. I was correct in saying that it is not the role of the BOR to test or retest the Scout on the requiresment. That is true. I said that the board can ask the scout how and when the requirement was met. That is true. I said that the scout knows if he passed the reqirement or not. That is true. I said once the book is signed there is no going back. That was an incorrect statement. I should have said that "once the requirement is met, and the book is signed there is no going back". I was in error for not including the first half of the statement. If the scout did not do as the book required then the BOR can require that he complete it prior to approving the advancement. We are not talking about retesting but only as to how and when he completed specific requirements. The greater problem here is still with the person who signed the book and allowed the scout to believe he had fulfilled his requirement, than with the scout himself. This does not hold true for Merit Badges, where once the MB counselor has signed off the badge is earned and cannot be re-tested or denied. Ed, Pages 28 through 30 of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual for starters. FOG, Do not take the position of judging any poster's character other than your own. Remember most of us know you by the other names you have used and how you have been suspended from this board for your inappropriate behavior and language. We also know that you stole another persons identity to gain access to this board again. You remain here due to what seems to be our nearly endless patience with you. But if you continue to judge others character, when you come to this board with such a questionable amount of your own, it will cause grief to no one but you. Bob White

I really have to stop dashing off mesages as I am dashing out the door. My apologies to those who cringe at my typos, it is 90% rushing. The last post should have read... What is the deal about what "Bob White says"! Have you folks even bothered to look at what the BSA advancement rules say? This is not about what I think, it's about understanding and following the scouting program. FOG you don't know or understand advancement. Silvershark, no scout is required to "master the skill" before he passes a requirement. Ed..well it's pointless so never mind. Could you folks just stop the rhetoric until you learn the programs? Then ask some questions about what you still don't understand rather than try to create your own rules. And please let's not look for ways to block advancement, thats not what a scoutleader's goal is. Instead get trained and learn how to administer a program. Thanks, Bob White

What is the deal about what "Bob White says"! Have you folks even bothered to look at what the BSA advancement rules say? This is not about what I think, it's about understanding and following the scouting program. Fog you don't know or understand adnancement. Silvershark, no scout is required to "master the skill" before he passes a requirement. Ed..well it's pointless so nevermind. Could you folks just stop the rhetoric until you learn the prograsm and then ask some questions about what you still don't understand rather than try to create your own rules. And please lests not look for ways to block advancement, thats not what a scoutleader's goal is. Instead get trained and learn how to administer a program. Thanks, Bob White

I agreee Dan, The scout skills are just the vehicle for what we do not the goal. Bob White

The Board of review must consist of a minimum of three committee members. If you do not have at least three committee members you cannot charter as a Boy Scout Troop. Your problem sounds more like a committee chairperson and COR's problem than a SM;s problem. In a troop, like any community, every person has a responsibility to help the community succeed. The CC and COR need to learn their job and do it, so that the boys can have a quality program. My recommendation is to tell the CC and COR that Board of Reviews require 3 committee members. Until they make that happen they are hurting the boys and the troop. When a parent wants to know why their son isn't advancing I would tell them that the Committee has not been able to get enough parents interested in helping the troop for the them to fulfill even their basic duties. Nothing recruits more effectively than the truth. Bob White

If you have a scout who needs weeks to learn a knot, he doesn't need a sign-off he needs and deserves a better teacher. I have never had scout that couldn't or didn't earn his own advancement and I've never had a parent ask for their child to be moved up without earning the rank as a Cub or Boy Scout leader. Is this a frequent occurence in your troop Ed, or just one you think happens a lot in the program? Bob White

"Humor impaired"? Me? Not at all Ed. I think that some of the board members that I swap messages with like OGE, Dteele and others will will even support me on that. Just becasue I didn't resond with a LOL to your post don't think I did not enjoy the humor of it. Believe me Ed when I say I get a good laugh out of almost everything you post. Bob White

Sorry Ed, I am not a fan of classroom testing and neither is the scouting program. The place for the scout to show he can apply a skill that he has learned is on a hike or campout, not in front of a group of committee members. The BOR is not the time or place forteaching or testing. Not just in my opinion but according to the scouting methods as well. Bob White

How many times have we all heard something like, "He's been working on that knot for weeks, can't you sign him off so he won't be behind his friends?" In 26 years of training Boy Scouts? NEVER! "So if a Scout joins a troop and Dad, who owns the local bike store, gives the SPL a 75% discount on a new BMX bike which in turn prompts the SPL to sign off on everything in the new Scout't book, all the way to 1st Class, there's no going back even if the BOR knows what happened?" Pardon me but...What an absolute load of hooey!!! What ever medication you are taking it's either not enough or way too much. Absurd comments like that do nothing to further the discussion or to develop a better understanding of the scouting methods. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What if the BOR knows that the Scout's dad did 99% of the Scout's job as QM?" Determining this is not the BOR's responsibility. if the troop leadership signed-off on the requirement for 'actively serving in a leadership position" then the requirement is met. If the committee feels that the leaders should not have signed that then that is an issue for them to take with the leadership. They can ask the scout if he felt he fullfilled the required and how but once the book is signed there is no going back. Bob White

Ed If that's what you need to believe in order to follow the scouting program then I can live with that. Bob White

"The original post said this requirement wasn't signed off in his book so the BOR was completely within it's right to question him about it." Yes, but only about if the requirement was completed, when it was completed, and who witnessed it that is authorized to sign the testing. What the Board is not supposed to do is test or retest the scout on the skill. Their job is to evaluate the rowth of the scout. To say that "the BOR does not serve as mentor and guide for the Scout, only the SM can do that." is not true according to the resources and training of the Boy Scout program. The BOR is one of two personal growth conferences that is done during the advancement program the other being the Scoutmaster Conference. Bob White

"It's not just you. I agree. BUT...the BOR chair should not even schedule the BOR if all of the requirements were not complete." That is incorrect. The Scoutmaster Handbook, Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and the Advancement Procedures Policies and Procedures manual, all state that the Board of Review is not only held when a scout is ready to advance. It can be done any time, and can be an especially efective tool to use when a scout is not advancing. Remeber that the BOR job is not to test the scout. The Board is to confirm that all elements are completed before advancement, that the scout is growing in the values of the Oath and Law, and to evaluate the troop program and leadership with input from the scout. In this case the Board of Review rather than test the scout on finding directions could have set a goal with the scout as to when he was going to learn how to do it, what his learning resources might be and when he would apply it so that his learning could be tested. They could also raise the question of how he passed his swimming and when the swimmtest was actually done. The scout could be asked if he thought being passed without actual doing the test that is in his handbook was being trustworthy or obedient, and what would be a more scout-like way to complete advancement requirements. They could then tell the scout what is needed to complete in order to finish his rank requirements and then discuss how he likes the troop, what he would like to see improved and what he personally would be willing to do to make the program better. So you see the BOR is one of the two personal conference tools we use to help the scout learn and grow. it is not for testing or retesting scout skills. I hope this helps you SagerScout. Bob White

Rooster, you are the second person in as many days to make such a comment. Ed also thinks it is a momentous occassion because he believes he and I have agreed. I have never asked or expected anyone to agree with me or given an opinion in order to agree with someone else. The awe inspiring thing is not that the two of you have agreed with me, but that for a brief moment in history you have both joined me in agreeing with and accepting an element of the scouting program. Welcome to the fold, we have been hoping you you visit. Stay as long as you can. Bob White

The hats-off indoors is largely a regional thing I think. I was raised in the chicago area where we learned hats of indoors. But I now live in a large farm community where I swear kids are born with ball caps on and wear them past their last breath. While vationing recently in the southwest folks in cowboy hats NEVER take them off (near as I can tell). I was told that it's the first thing you put on in the morning and the last thing that comes off at night (which I found odd since most I saw also wore t-shirts). I guess what I am saying is be appropriate for where you are, kinda of "when in Rome" philosophy. Sincerely (and with my hat off) Bob White

"I think that all boys need these opportunities and it is a shame if some are rejected simply because they are a minority faith." This is the kind of rhetoric that sidetracks these conversations and obscures the truth. Nowhere did anyone (including the BSA) so much as infer that this was only for 'majority' religions. This has NOTHING to do with the religious faith of the chartering organization. In fact, as has been stated, it does not even have to be a religion based CO at all. This is merely the owners of the unit being allowed to limit membership in that particular unit to its own youth members. Remember the whole conversation about "freedom of association"? This is part of it. If you have a pool in your back yard that you paid for, you maintain, you own, then you can let anyone you choose to swim in it for whatever reason you choose. Are there some boys in the neighborhood you don't want in your yard? Maybe. If so you have the right to say so. If you were the conductor of the school choir can any student join or only those who live in your school district? The Chartering Organization of a scout unit is no different. The right to free association is not a right of the majority, it is a right that any private citizen or organization enjoys. This is not a them and us situation. It's just us. ""The BSA recognizes the religious elements in the training of a member, it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that training." (emphasis on absolutely nonsectarian) "The BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God...." "The BSA does not require membership in a religious organization...." "The BSA respects the convictions of those ... without formal membership in religious organizations." All true. But you need to make the distinction between the BSA and the Chartering Organization. The BSA is non-sectarian in its membership and training, the BSA does not require membership in a specific religious organization (it does however require a belief in and service to God). But that doesn't mean the Co can't be sectarian, just that the BSA cannot. The BSA will not turn away a person for not being Christian, or for not being Hindu. That does not mean that the Buddhist temple that charters the troop cannot refuse your membership for not being a Buddhist. In fact a CO can refuse anyones membership for whatever reason they want. It's their pool, they don't have to let anyone in they don't want. "Freedom of association" How does a CO change their focus to a specific group to serve? Well technically all they have to do is make the decision and do it. I can't imagine anyone would actually be so callous as to do it that way, and in over 30 years and volunteering in more than a few councils I have never heard of it happening. However it is their right to do so if they should so choose. I can guarantee that the local district volunteers and professionals would begin a flurry of activity to relocate the released scouts or find new charter organizations if it happened. Most units that have restricted membership either begin that way or change over through attrition. Charter organizations are in this for the good of the youth too. There is nothing wrong with them choosing to focus on the youth of their membership or congregation if they so choose. That has always been part of the BSA's charter agreement and a fundamental element of the BSA's Congressional Charter. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry, but I don't know what a DH is. The best thing I can suggest is get a copy of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Highlight the related passages and have copies made for the entire committee. Explain that you recently discovered that what the committee has been doing is in direct violation of the policies of the BSA and that the practice needs to stop immediately. Suggest that the District Advancement Chair or the Boy Scout Training committee be invited in to give the proper training so that the boys are no no longer adversely affected by the past procedures. there is specific training for the SM andASMs and a separate course for the Troop committee. Your local training team can tell you when these courses are available, but I recommend you ask that the training committee schedule courses for your unit specifically. (I still don't know what a DH is in scouting) Bob White

I know of no explanation of the five points of the star. I would appeal the board's decision to the district or council advancement committee. Your son's board has made an unfortunate mistake. Since the information they are requesting is not a BSA requirement for the rank they are in violation of the BSA Advancement policies and procedures to require it in order to advance. (you will find support for this in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual available from your local council service center. I would also urge that you request the district advancement chair to come in and train the committee in the current duties of the BOR and the advancement policies and procedures of the BSA. Best of luck and apologies to your son for his inconvenience Bob White

Hi Dave, You and I have discussed this off the board and so I won't repeat those here, but I do congratulate you for being willing to share this information with others. Kids can often be very cruel to each other especially when they focus on what appears to them to be a flaw or weakness in another person of any age. I hope that this information will help us as leaders to be more aware of the personal conditions and needs of the scouts we serve. Thanks for sharing, Bob W.

Yes scoutmom, there are restrictions on Patrol activities. Water activities for instance require adults to be present due to the safety regulations of Safe Swim defense and Safety Afloat. The best source of answers to these kind iof questions is in the resources of the BSA, Adult Leader Training, The Scoutmaster Handbook, The Boyscout Handbook, Youth Protection Training, Guide to Safe Scouting. No amount of posting will give you as completre an understanding as reading the scouting manulas and taking the applicable training for the program you are involved in. Hope this helps, Bob White

My recommendation would be to have the troop committee take care of records and drop the patrol advisor position...that's your job. The SM trains the Patrol Leaders to operate the patrol. I would suggest an ASM for New Scout Patrol that works closely with them and steps back as their skills and experience allow. The Same for an ASM of a venture patrol (your High Advanture position). But as far as the regular patrols that is really your job as the SM. I would also recommend an ASM for Webelos Recruitment to build relationships with packs and potential troop members. Hope this helps, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi molscouter, That's fine, but as you probably know it is not required for you to do that. Bob White

You have misinterpreted the passage. I invite you to print the entire text rather than a portion out of context. What you have printed says that a scout in a unit that is sponsored by a religious organization cannot be forced to take part in that religion's ceremonies. It does not imply that a religion based CO cannot restrict its membership to those of their specific religion. The current Cub Leader Handbook page 8-4 states "Young people of all relious backgrounds are welcomed in Scouting, some participating in units for youth of a particular faith and the greaster majority participating in units open to members of various religious backgrounds." If you feel the handbook from 1992 says something contrary please print the entire passage so that we can see if it actually translates that way. I don't believe that it does. Bob White

That's not quite accurate. Exploring is a part of LFL but not a part of Boy Scouts. It is an important distinction. LFL is a susidiary of the BSA. Boy Scouts is a division of BSA. The LFL and the BSA are separate non-profit corporations. The volunteers of the districts and councils who are registered to the BSA work with the traditional programs of Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venturing. They do not serve the needs of the LFL program. The LFL is served locally from the Council BSA offices but the expenses of serving the LFL comes from a separate general fund. This is needed because the LFL can accept grants and funds that the BSA are not eligible to receive. District and council administration of LFL is also separate. The activity committee, training committee, advancement committee and commissioner services among others service only the traditional programs. The biggest difference in the membership is that LFL members are not restricted by religious choice or sexual orientation. as in the traditional programs. While the exploring program has a number of skill proficiences they can earn recognitions for they do not have a prograssive advancement program as in the traditional programs. This is information is not meant to down play the quality or the importance of the LFL program. It is taking the ethical teachings of the scouting program and reaching youth that might otherwise not recieve the scouting program. It has also allowed for the continuation of programs such as the Law enforcement posts that would otherwise have been destroyed by politically motivated groups. I'm sure on the surface it might appear to Capt.Lafferty that we all one group because we are housed in the same building but the programs and the administration service that supports them are quite different. Bob White

I'd be glad to help if I can. More importantly is that you understand how scouting is distributed in the USA. Was this really new information to you? Do you understand how Charter organizations can be more restrictive than the BSA in order to meet local goals, but cannot be less restrictive than the BSA in order to maintain a national program? BW