Bob White

NJ, you base an erroneous aasumption on an erroneous premise. You suggest that the BSA cannot or has not removed a member of a unit committee from membership. That is incorrect. When I say that the BSA will replace them I should have said they would approve the membership of new members who would support the rules of the BSA. The new members would be selected by a nominating committee just as the original ones were, in accordance with council by-laws. Bob White By the way it is not might makes right, it is the excercise of the constitutional rights of a private organization. Granted to the mighty and the weak as citizens of the U.S.A. Just because you want to swim in your neighbors pool does not give you the right to do so.

I just wanted to get the forum back on a real world, positive track. As you may have heard the BSA and the ARC sign what a unique agreement of cooperation earlier this year. Details are just now working their way to councils and we had a very productive meeting with our regions ARC training and education coordinators. This is a very positive step for both organizations with several win win opportunities. One thing I was very happy to hear is that the ARC nationwide now accepts the BSA Lifeguard as fullfilling all requirements for the Red Cross Water Safety and Lifesaving certification. So now when a scout completes his training at summercamp he will get both the BSA and the ARC lifeguard certification. Another real plus is that any scout or scouter can take a select variety of ARC courses and instructor courses for just $5 plus the cost of the book and equipment rental. I don't have the list in front of me but I will post them soon. Your District Training committees should have info very soon. As things progress ARC certification will jive with the various levels of cub and boy scout advancement so that as a scout advances he will complete ARC certified training. What's in it for the ARC? More instructors, better prepared community, greater exposure of services, safer children. This is definitely a good think for everyone. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree that the council committee meant for the policy to reflect on e of total inclusiveness. An act they had no authority to undertake. The Council signs the same charter with the national office that the units do. It is a shared agrrement that each party agree to specific responsibilities. Included is that the council will operate in accordance with the policies, rules and regulations of the BSA. The Council Committee is not empowered to alter the membership rules to be be less restrictive than national's rules. if the volunteers of the that community wish to offer a a program open to any and all they are free to do so, however they are not free to use the Boy scout program to do so. They are free and welcome to use a program of their own or to choose to use a different program. If they want scouting then they are required to use it according to the national regulations. The BSA reminded them that it is not a have your cake and eat it to proposition. Had the COL Council committee not agreed to follow the national guidelines the BSA would have have merely removed the membership of the Council committe and replaced them with volunteers who would continue to support the program. Bob White

I guess, I see the reasons for, and sentiment carried, by the momento as more important than the amount of dust it is capable of collecting. Bob White BW B;)B Bobby Bobster B Ditty Bobarino Bobolicious The Bob Man The Bob Meister Bob Bob Aloobob A Bob Bam Boom

Please FOG, the thought that you are a unit leader is scary enough. I have no worries of you or Ed serving on a national committee. That statement can be interpreted in two ways. I mean them both. Bob White

OGE Do I detect the wry wrinkle of an eyebrow? BW

Yes

removing a scout or an adult from a unit and removing them from the BSA are two different things. One requires action by the local Council Scout Executive or the national office and the other does not. Being removed from a unit does not require you to be removed from scouting, and it does not keep you from registering in another unit. Only if the national ofice removes your eligibility to be a member are you barred from the program. Bob White

Hi Eamonn, I guess I would ask myself, why am I buying momentos for them? As a thank you? To show true appreciation for sharing their personal skills to help others? As a remembrance of your time together? My guess would be that the same reasons you are doing a act of kindness for them are the reasons they want to do one for you. Sometimes the hardest thing for a volunteer to do is to accept a thank you. I'll bet your participation as the course director has given these folks a lot of things. An education, sense of accomplishment, opportunity, fellowship, just to name a few. Allow them a moment to say "thank you", and when you look back at that chunk of glass rock you can remember that you spent time with a special group of scouters and they appreciated who you were, and what you shared with them. Bob White

Ed The advancement policies state that when the scout has completed the requirement to the level expected that the advancement is recorded. It also says that the scout is not retested. If you cannot retest, on what grounds would you remove the advancemnt? Why would you want a way to remove a boys advancement? Why do you persist in search searching for negative ways to affect the scout? Of the many Scout leaders I have worked with over the years I know of none who have worked as hard to take something away from the scout. Instead they put their energy into providing a well delivered scouting program. If you do your job as a leader why would you need to even consider taking things back? You want to be able to remove advancement, you want to control elections, you want to deteremine what merit badges they work on, you want to be able to use attendance to determine advancement. Why always the negative route? Where has the scouting program told you to do these things? Even you have refered to him as FOG, as have many other posters. What is in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet? It's just a bulletin board handle for cryin out loud Ed, It's not like it's his real name! Bobby

general understanding about the road on which they are about to embark. Found I believe in the front section of the Cub Scout Handbooks. Mostly it would be about the pack's structure, meeting/activity places, Varies from Pack to Pack rules that overlay the BSA's policies and guidelines, On-line YP training and online Guide to safe scouting fundraising methods, Methods vary from pack to Pack with Scout Popcorn one of the most common by not only choice. den supplies reimbursement Varies from pack to pack. annual pack activities, pack meeting agenda Varies from Pack to Pack These things are not covered in any training nor at roundtable If your District is following the Roundtable plan they are. The document would breifly touch on alot of subjects they will need to know about quickly, such as awards Found in the Cub Scout handbooks uniforms (class A vs. class B) No such thing. You are in uniform or you are out of uniform. The uniform is described in each handbook. family camping Not useed by every pack local tour permit Not a function of the parent or den leader. This is a committee responsibility. family's role in scouting Cub Handbook. It would also go through the den meeting with focus on what other resources will help in each area of the meeting. Program Helps manual does exactly that I can not expect a brand new den leader to absorb the Cub Scout Leader Book to know what is really important to run their den the next week. True, but there is no need to read the whole book. Just the portions that are clearly marked for the den leaders. I want to give them something they can use as an initial leader book, a link to the CSLB. The Program Helps Has meeting agendas themes, ceremonies, games, resources, everything they need for an entire years program when used in cooperation with the appropriate Cub rank Handbook. We are in a very large rural district and our roundtable is OK but poorly attended and therefore is mostly concerned with the pack meeting material. Communicate with the roundtable staff. Tell them you need Den Meeting Info. What I think you also need is an Orientation Booklet for your pack to give to leaders and parents with your pack-specific information. With so many program elements that are unique to each unit there is no way that national could devise the tool you describe ad certainly not in as few pages as you envision. Don't make this more difficult than it needs to be. Running a den is not difficult if you use the existing tools. Training, Rank Handbooks, Program Helps, Roundtable. They are the simple recipe to a great Den and pack program. Don't spend time trying to make a better mousetrap. The one you have been provided works just fine. Really. Good Luck Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Laura7, You might refer your troop committee to the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual and the the Scoutmaster Handbook where they explain that awards are not to be held until the quarterly COH, but are to be given to the scout ASAP. The pocket certificates can be held and presesented at the COH. Making a scout wait for months to recieve a recognition is too long. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That would be determined on a case by case basis. Again National is going to keep it confidential unless the scout makes it public.

The Scoutmaster never had the authority to take the Eagle away. Once the National Board of Review has approved it, only the they can rescind it. If the Scoutmaster has taken a Scout's Eagle Award he is way out of bounds and should return it immediately. The Eagle Award is the property an emblem of the BSA not the local troop. The Scoutmaster was wrong to act as he did irregardless of why he did it. The rank stands until National says otherwise. A lawsuit against the scoutmaster will be costly and he will lose. Have the Eagle returned to the scout. Bob White

DS I got my info about two years ago in a conversation with the Director of Boy Scout Advancement. He said it is a rare instance and that it is even rarer that it is made public. Bob White

"I for one don't see that "level expected" to be tying a knot while looking at the book." And I would have to say that depended on the individual scout and the level he is working at. Bob White

I know exactly how they evolved FOG. Active Volunteers who have successful scoutiung programs are invited onto national committees that constantly review all aspects of the scouting program. As these committees determine that changes need to be made in areas that are no longer producing the expected results or where more effective methods have been developed elsewhere in the real world the committedeveolps an action plan. These plans are then tested in various regions of the country to fine tune them and test their results. While this happens budgets are determined and resources are developed to create a distribution of the new methods throughout the national program. Or did you think they came about by wishing them on an internet bulletin board? Bob White

Since it was the parents who signed the membership application it would seem appropriate to inform them. Is the Chartering Organization required to include the parents in the decision making? That would be preferred but it is not required. The Chartering Organization is required to notify the Council Scout Executive of such action.

The National Board of Review, a group of volunteers and a professional (I think there is just one), would review the circumstances surrounding a request to rescind the award. The Board will talk with any persons they determine is necessary and make a dermination. Does it take more than a phone call? Yes Is the parent notified? I am not sure but my guess would, be only of the decision. Is age a factor? No But this can only be Done by the National office and no other authority. Bob White

Again we see it differenntly FOG. It is not the inablity to see the difference, it is the acute ability to recognize the difference, and see the folly in the wishing. The Scouting program is not what you or anyone wishes it could be. Scouting is what the BSA has determined it to be. Only in spending time and effort learning and using the BSA methods, skills, and programs can you deliver a real scouting program to the youth of the community. Wishing it to be something else is fine for when you are asleep and dreaming. Scouts need leaders who are awake and understand the scouting program. The leaders who are the topic of this thread need to revisit training and learn how to manage the advancement program. Others need to consider spending less time in imagining advancement policies and procedures that do not exist and learn how to do the real life scouting program, for the good of the scouts they serve. Bob White

Since the Eagle Award is the only Boy Scout rank issued by the National Council of the BSA and not by the Troop, only the National Council can rescind an Eagle Award. Yes this has been done before, but you will not hear about it from the national office first. Only if the former holder of the rank makes the action public will the BSA comment on it. This is done for reasons of confidentiality. Bob White

Silvershark, I believe what the SM handbook says is Demonstrate that he has fully mastered the skill to the level expected. There is a big difference. Who has asked you to reward anyone for violating the Oath and Law? No one on this board. But when a scout demonstrates he has completed the requirement the leader acknowledges that fact and records the advancement. If a scout shows that he can tie a clove hitch correctly you don't judge his scout spirit before you record the advancement. On the same hand you are not required to sign scout spirit for a scout who is a bully. But we have posters who want to determine advancement by age or maturity, neither of which are requirements for advancement. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Fish, What you describe cannot be contained in a twenty page document. Your best resource for those topics is Cub Scout Roundtable. Roundtable is a monthly supplemental training course put on in your district by the Commissioner Services staff. It usually lasts 60-90 minutes and a good Roundtable will incorporate all the things you mentioned. When you say Essentials/Specific are you refering to both the New Leader Essentials Course and the Den Leader Specific Training Course? I would think those nearly 5 hours of training along with the Program Helps booklet would prepare you quite well to begin as a den Leader? What do you feel was missing? Bob White

Your opinion perhaps, but not a requirement or element of the scouting program. The BSA believes that leadership is a learned skill and not a residual characteristic of maturity. There are numerous "mature" adults who lack the ability to successfully lead others. Also how would you objectively measure maturity and make it an equal measurement throughout a national program? The best measurement of maturity in a scout is scout spirit, his ability to live by the values of the Oath and Law. While you are welcome to your opinion we have a responsibility to deliver the scouting program in accordance to the methods and rules of the BSA. Living up to your responsibilities is evidence of being a mature leader. Bob White

FOG, You fear you will draw my wrath for agreeing with someone who does not follow the scouting program? That has become so commonplace it barely draws my attention. You are welcome to agree with them, I just hope for the sake of the scouts you serve that you don't act on those thoughts, until the day that age becomes a requirement for advancemnt in the BSA. Otherwise, you would set a very bad example of being trustworthy, helpful, and obedient, and you would misrepresent the purpose methods and goals of the BSA. Let's remember that advancement is a tool, Eagle scout is not the goal, and being a leader, not being in charge, is the job of the adult. Bob White