Bob White

Very good Acco40 that is exactly right. Now lets make this even more realistic. If this was an SPL talking to a PL or even a patrol member this would be directing and it would be the least appropriate style for this task. Why? Because the SPL's job is not to tell patrol leaders what to do or to run the patrol. This kind of bossing around may get the job done but it will not foster teamwork, improve morale, or develop better leadership skills. Which of the other styles could have been used to allow the Patrol Leader to remain the leader of the task, not the SPL, but still make sure the job gets done? Bob White

Thanks spork, glad to help. B:)b White

Ed please understand what the four of us are trying to do is explain the four styles of situational management as deveolped and defined by Blanchard, which is now included in the BSA training programs and handbooks. there is really no option for alternative definitions within this framework. It is fine that you feel it should be different. But,since the BSA does not teach your feelings as the methods of scouting, or share your feelings with all trained leaders it has no bearing on the program or this discussion. Bob White

kwc57, perhaps you missed what I wrote in the previos post that said"None however have required all the parents to to so as well. That would be the equivalent of having all the CCD (religious education) student's parents being screened, and that is not required or done." That is why I agreed that Acc040 should follow through on his lan to go meet with the COR and IH not the office staff. Bob White

In defining the "Directing style, Blanchard writes...In Directing the leaders gives specific instructions and closely supervises the task instructions. Since the statement ""Ok guy, let's get the gear unloaded" is a general and not a specifc instruction it does not meet the criteria for "Directing" as it is defined in the Scoutmaster Specifc Training course, Wood Badge or Blanchards writings on situational management. At best it is almost delegational in content. Where the leader's trust level is high and the group has displayed the needed knowledge and skill level to act independently. Still missing is the element of support that reinforces the groups confidence and recognizes their ability and reinforces the leaders ultimate responsibility for the work. Plus someone must be made responsible for questions or troubleshooting other than the leader if you are truly delegating. "Ted you know what needs to be be done for unloading the gear, I know you will do a good job, let me know when the guys are finished so we can move on to the next step." Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

RA I have sent you a reply by private message. Bob

All Scout leader training is divided into 4 categories. 1)Introductory 2)Basic 3)Advanced 4)Supplementary for a Scoutmaster Introductory -Fast Start Video (not required for the completing Basic Training) 2)Basic -New Leader Essentials -Scoutmaster/asst. SM Leader Specific Training -Introduction to Outdoor Skills Completion of these three earn the Trained leader strip. Advanced - Wood Badge Supplementary -Youth Protection -Roundtable -Scouters College -Okpik -Philmont Conferences and many others Hope this helps, B:)b White

Just as it takes new information in the BSA to work it's way through the information and application phases over a nationwide program the same is tru for other organizations our size such as the Catholic church. I think that within a years time you will find most every parish following the mandate. Bob White

Please don't misunderstand my post spork. My point was that you are looking for training material for a use that the position was not designed to fulfill. How would the BSA know to produce such a documnet. Training information does exist for the purpose the office was designed for. The role of supporting and guiding patrol leaders is specifically the responsibility of the SPL and the Scoutmaster. If they are not developing the patrol leaders then what are thescoutmaster and SPLs responsibility in your troop? I appreciate that what you are doing works. But there are alot of things that you could do that "work". That fact that it works does not make it scouting. I think if you look at the scouting program resources you will see that the program is designed to function much differently in order to gain specific results. Hope this helps, bob White

Your are welcome to you memories no matter how inconsequential they are to the topic of this thread NJ. But as the originator of the thread I felt uniquely responsible for keeping the focus of the discussion on the actual topic, which is the program benefit to the members of BSA from the new partnership. I would hope that a separate discussion on the devastating effect of the thread color in one out of some one-hundred-and-forty merit badges would deserve it's own thread which someone else can start. This topic of this thread was about the actual program and service benefits, which I hope we can stick to during the course of the discussion. Perhaps you would start a thread about thread in a more appropriate forum such as 'uniforming'. Bob White

It is my understanding, having spoken with the priest who is the Chaplain for Catholic Scouting and sits on the National Council for Catholic Scouting that every Roman Catholic diocese in the U.S. is now required to finger print every adult working directly with youth in the Church. I have worked with several troops in Roman Catholic churches in more than a few dioceses and every one was required to comply with this directive, as well as the youth protection. I agree that some adults are not comfortable with this process. But as a COR or IH I would be uncomfortable with a youth leader who would not comply. The safety of the children is more important than the individual comfort of any adult. Bob White

"Ok guy, let's get the gear unloaded" This is not a "directing" leadership statement. That would be like a factory forman walking in and said "Ok fellows let's build some widgets" that does not offer leadership. No real information is shared, no group or individual is developed, no organization accomplished no specific authority delegated. Leadership doesn't deal in generalities. It identifies and accomplishes specific tasks through the development of specific people. What is the likely hood of a patrol leaders council success if the leadership they get is "Ok guys lets go run a troop". Leadership has specific developmental goals for individuals as the task is accomplished. Bob White

You may have a membership card to the pool but only because you have been allowed the priviledge of membership not because you have a right to it, and you are not on the committee that controls who is allowed or disallowed membership. You are still aguest. Break the rules and you can be relieved of your membership. "You seem to be assuming that if a council committee opposes the BSA's anti-gay policy, they must be some rogue people who are off on their own agenda, and do not represent the opinion of the council (in other words, the CO's within the council.)" Not at all. What I am saying is the council represents the COs that signed an agreement with the BSA to abide by the policies and regulations of the scouting program, not an agreement to change the BSA rules as they deem appropriate. Once they violate the rules, the agreement can be vacated by the BSA, and new agreements signed with those who will follow the program. The goal of scouting is not to serve the majority, but to deliver it's mission to those who want it. If you do not want the values then you are not obliged or even invited to join. Don't tell me you want everything about scouting but the values. Just how shallow is that? The values are the gift of scouting, everything else is the wrapping it comes in. The values of scouting mean more to the BSA than a poitically motivated cause du jour. If the Council Members of the Cradle of Liberty lack the integrity to abide by the rules they promised to support, then the BSA has the authority and the responsibilty to find the community leaders who want and support the values and policies of the BSA. The Council is not the scouting program. It is a non-profit corporation which exists soley to deliver the scouting program, not change it. Bob White

WHOA WHOA WHOA Not my view. What I wrote came from the teaching materials of the author of Leadership and the One-minute Manager, Kenneth Blanchard. He authored this training for the BSA. I used his words, his concepts, and teaching. This is the BSA method which I use. It is The view shared by Dr. Blanchard, the BSA and hundreds of thousands of adult leaders. Not just me. Bob White

Thank You anne for trying to get things back to the priority issue. (I cannot believe people want to discuss thread color!) Here is what the red Cross has posted on their site. Additional details will be available soon through you council's training committee. http://www.redcross.org/news/hs/firstaid/030212scouts.html Bob

I believe you are on the right path Acco40. Go have a calm conversation with the IH and the COR. Having worked with several Catholic sponsored units I can tell you my experiences have been very positive. Yes, Catholic church requires all adult volunteers who are in contact with youth to be fingerprinted and take one of the three youth protection programs offered by the church (in addition to the BSA screening and YP). I wish all COs were as cautious. None however have required all the parents to to so as well. That would be the equivalent of having all the CCD (religious education) student's parents being screened, and that is not required or done. But you cannot expect the office staff to understand pack or troop organizational structure. As far as the public school lumping all charitable organizations together...if they are not a chartering organization I can see why they would do that. You are not their scout unit...you are just a scout unit. I would expect them to treat you as any other outside activity. But the CO just needs to be reminded that you are their unit not a unit that uses their facilities. If you have a good relationship with your DE take them in with, better yet a member of the unit that is a known member of the church. I'm sure things will work out fine, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you would allow me spork to make some observations that may help. Your troop has chosen a unique use of the term and role of the Troop Guide. because of this there will be no training tool developed since the position was not meant to be used in this manner. The troop guide is meant to be a mentor to the New Scout Patrol. One older scout who works as a co-patrol leader as each member of the patrol holds the PL position for 30 days to experience how a troop functions with boy leadership. The Troop guide is a member of the New Scout Patrol and a voting member of the PLC along with the patrol leader that month. The position is meant to be one boy in order to build a relationship with the new scouts and lead them to First Class in approx. the first year. As of the second year the patrols are under their own elected leadership. To give them a Troop Guide negates the need for an election. To have half the balance of the troop as troop guides would be like have half the troop be Librarians, there really is no need. I will also offer that with so many scouts there really is no need for anyone to hold more than one office at a time. That is not the purpose of the patrol method. My recommendation is to review the section on troop guide in the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Senior Patrol Leaders Handbook, and to review the troop structure recommended by the Boy Scout Program. I think you will see that by getting back to the recommended troop organization plan the purpose of the Troop Guide would be far more clear. You will note in those resources that the New Scout patrol has along with the troop Guide an Assistant Scoutmaster who works with him. Together they create a program of activities that make it possible for an active scout to achieve the basic sklls of scouting and Advancement to First Class in the first 12 to 14 months of membership. I caution against reinventing the wheel. the one designed by the Sccouting program works the best but only if t is used. The further from the program you stray the more difficult it will become to find the needed support materials. I hope this helps, Bob White

Spork I see you are a Patrol Leader and Librarian, are you also a Troop Guide? How many New Scout Patrols does your troop have? BW

I'm sure Jesus is probably re-thinking that whole "Peter put your sword away" thing right about now. Not to mention the entire scourging incident. Thanks FOG. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is not inconsistent in that even committee members are registered with the BSA just as is any youth or adult member. The BSA has removed individual memberships at the committee level. The Charter is for the charter organization. The membership is by individual. The BSA controls both.

This is kind of like asking for suggestions of what to do on vacation, the ideas can be endless. Attitude is everything. Train them trust them let them lead, is how Baden-Powell described the charge he left to scoutleaders. How you show that trust is a big part of successful leadership. I have found over the years that what makes the biggest diference to the scouts is personal contact. Except for Scoutmaster minutes I very rarely talk to large groups of scouts. Personl converstaions to individuals or patrols will accomplish far more. Small things said to individuals will get great results. Just comments like "I like how you did that", "that was excellent, Please show Tom how you did that", "You look so sharp in a full uniform, I hope you will wear it more often", "I'm really impressed by the job you are doing, I like how you talk with the patrol reather than telling them what to do", "It's great they way you guys cooperate, you get so much more done that way." "it's a real pleasure getting to work with you, you have a real knack for this this skill." I think you'll find as a scout grows in confidence they work harder at the skill or task. partly because they feel better about the work and partly because they want to hear additional positive comments from an adult. The best thing is that as the scouts get used to being treated this way they begin to treat each other this way. I recently heard one of the patrol leaders iin my sons troop say to two scouts, "Rob I'd like you and Tony to do the supper dishes this weekend Tony is new and needs to understand how to do the dishes right so that no one gets sick and I've never seen you do a bad job. I really appreciate it." How many times have you heard scouts talk like that to each other? Rob's Answer was even better, "why don't I wash the dishes at dinner with him helping and then have him do breakfast and I can check his work." That kind of attitude and cooperation comes from the way the scouts are treated by the leaders. We also have used door prizes at troop meetings. If you bring your handbook you put you rname in the drawing, if you wore your complete uniform you can put your name in again, if you remembered your permission slip you can put it in again, if you bring iin a completed blue card you can put in in again. Then at the end of the meeting we will draw a name and give a mug or collectors patch, a water bottle or cnaping tool. The scouts really enjoy it, and it promotes a number of positive behaviors. Hope this helps, Bob White

My vote is with ASM7 the best way to remedy the situation is to follow the program. The patrols elect their own PL and then the PL selects his APL. Without an APL who leads the patrol in the PLs asbsence? True, we want all the scouts to work together, but not everyone has the same idea of what that means, how to lead, and what a leaders job is. The patrol functions best with continuity and allowing the PL to choose an assistant that works well with them is a good step toward that continuity. When problems arise you will find more success by stepping toward the recommended scouting methods not by stepping further away. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Craneace, Although I appreciate you frustration over this situation you are lashing out at the wrong people. The answers you want will not be found on an internet board. You bring us one view of a complex story and only some info at that. In addition the problem is years old and perhaps the story has evolved with the passage of time. The BSA's own training material sites sexual contact of adolescent children relatively the same age as often experimentation and rarely abuse. The scouts family was told that his membership was revoked and then they appealled to District officials? What is the point of going to district if the national office revoked membership. You don't go to traffic court to overturn the Supreme Court. Who did the family consider to be District oficials? The District Executive would not give the advice they received. As Dave Steele pointed out this is tragic for all involved but you have to expect that the BSA will do what is best for the perceived protection of youth. I have given you the address to give to the family. I would suggest they hire a lawyer to draft a clear letter of the important factors. Presented in a way that the lawyer feels would get the greatest attention. Then be willing to accept the decision of the BSA. Bob White

"One quiet 12 yr old boy used his position of Troop Bugler to advance to Life" No he didn't!!! A Scoutmaster and at least three members of the troop committee allowed a boy to advance without providing him the direction needed to meet the actual rank requirements. The adults failed the youth. Let's remember who is responsible for the achieving the goals of the program. It is not the youth. Bob White

I have to believe that both parties found more pressing concerns and higher priorities than thread color, but I'm just guessing. BW