Bob White

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding proper use of uniform, rank and award use in the Venturing program. Much of which centers around the crews ability to wear the official uniform or create their own. What is being misunderstood the most is that although the crew can determine a unique uniform for itself it cannot alter the insignia policies of the BSA. Being allowed to choose your own uniform piece does not let you change the purpose, use, or display of official BSA awards or insignias. If you look in the Venturing Leader Manual on page 336 you will find that "Existing placement policies related to the BSA uniforms shall apply to the green venturing shirt. The uniform you are allowed to create does not replace the official Venturing Field uniform but is more akin to a troop activity uniform. BSA awards, official rank patches, office pathes, etc. are not approved for wear on an activity uniform. A crew may design it's own crew emblem to wear on it's own shirt or the official shirt but it must be approved by the local council before it is ordered. (see page 331 of the Venturing Leader Manual) The knots allowable for wear on a youth in Venturing are the same as the knots worn by a youth in a troop. The Eagle Award medal is approved for wear on the official Venturing uniform for formal occassions only. (See page 8) For further evidence of this policy go to page 30 of the Insignia Guide for 2003-2005 (#33066D) You will notice that for wearing Venturing emblems and awards you are to follow the Boy Scout guidelines AND use the official Venturing shirt. I hope this helps. Bob White

I have used the JASM position for several years and have had as many as 5 JASMS at one time. Their job responsibilities depended on their inidividual strengths and interests. We have used them for training, special events planning, fundraising activities, new scout orientation, just to name a few. It is a great tool for keeping older scouts active and advancing. Bob White

Scout activities are for scouts, and scouts take an oath to be friendly , courteous, kind, and obedient (ven to his brother). I would have him treated as any other scout who was disrupting the troop meeting. I would ask the SM to have a Scoutmaster Conference with him regarding his behavior. If the scout could not determine how to behave in accordance with the oath he swore to, I (as the scoutmaster) would explain that the next time he acted in an unscout-loke manner he would be sent home so his parents could discuss appropriate actions with him. Then, if it becomes necesarry I would do just that. (It worked with me when my older brother was my Patrol Leader) Good Luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Just wonder if anyone else has run into something like this before and what you would suggest." Rest assured your son is not the only scout who has had to deal with this type of adult leadership problem. It is indeed unfortunate that not all troop leaders actually lead. It has been my experience that few if any of the adults who behave in this matter will ever change. They view this behavior as correct and enjoy being the "guys in charge". As I see it you have two possibilities. One is for you as an adult to have a non-confrontational meeting with the SM and explain your concerns, site examples from the resources of the BSA to support your position, and hope that as a reasonable person who wants to do a good job for the boys he or she will change their leadership methods. Secondly, if the first option does not get the hoped for results, would be to meet with the COR and state your case. Suggest that the SM and his assistants should either follow the BSA program or be replaced by adults who will. Of course if neither approach brings about the change needed in the troop I would reconsider membership in the troop. A boy in this kind of scouting program will be a better person by spending 90-minutes with a caring father each week, than with a bad scoutmaster. Best of luck, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Does SM report to Committee Chair or Charter organizational rep. (COR)" The Scoutmaster is part of a team of adults responsible for bringing scouting to boys. The Scoutmaster is responsible for for the image and program of the troop. Looking for who reports to who will not make for better scouting in the unit. It is a team effort that requires each to do their specific job. The committee chair, for instance, is not charged with being the go-between for the COR and SM. The troop would be served better if you scrapped your 'troop by-laws' and adopted the methods of operation found in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Troop Committee Guidebook. I would also strongly recommend that every registered adult be required to complete basic training for their position. Making things up as you go along is time consuming and will only lead to conflicts. The best way to provide a scouting program is by using the scouting methods and procedures which already exist. Best of Luck, Bob White

I knew a guy who had a car that sat in his garage. He never started it. He never took out and about or sterred in in a ny specifc direction. 6 months later the car had never moved and the guy sold it. What good is a car that doesn't take you anywhere? I knew s scoutmaster with a junior leader. The scoutmaster never trained the boy, never got him started. He never spent time with him showing him how to lead, and he never even steered him in the right diection. 6-months later the boy was right where he began. The SM gave up on him, what good is a leader who doesn't lead. The car needs a better driver, the boy needs.....? You cannot say that the scout did not fullfill the requirements if he was not trained and supported. The best judge of active leadership is the scout. At the on set of the leadership experience the scout is to have an Introduction to Leadership Conference with an adult. During that conference the scout and adult agree on job responsibilities and performance expectations. A good adult leader does not wait until the scout's tenure is up to judge him, but coaches the scout to evaluate himself in the course of his tenure to help him see his own strengths and growth. There was questionable leadership going on. The question is,...on whose part? Bob White

I am reminded of two things, some very special friendships, and a promise to serve others and the program. It's a good feeling. Hope your weekend went well Eamonn. Bob White

I dodged nothing Rooster. My position on this was never based on what other people called us but only on how we refer to ourselves as Scoutmasters and adult leaders. Just as every scout can rightfully say my troop so can each parent of a child say my child, but only about their own child. Again this is a personal choice based on the knowledge that the words we use to describe ourselves and others affect our attitudes and actions. I don't think you will find anyone who is learned in human behavior who will refute this relationship. One of the most common problems in troops can be the dictatorial nature of adults. If by simply altering the language we use we can help influence our behaviour in a positive manner why would you be opposed? Bob White

Creative Campfires is available through the BSA National Supply Division- 800-323-0732 Fax +1-704-588-5822 Bob White

I think that a main concern of the BSA, and one that has been overlooked to this point of the discussion, is the potential for fraternization between leaders and participants in the two programs. In the Boy Scout program the danger of fraternization between adult women and scout aged boys is very low, whereas in Venturing the age difference between leader and participant is much narrower. For that reason any two adults can be present on a troop outing, but Venturing requires a female adult to supervise female participants, and a male adult to supervise the male participants. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The new Scoutmaster Leader Specific training sites 30 to 60 scouts as the optimal size for a troop. As a scoutmaster I saw the troop go from 6 to 39 in about 18 months. The two key factors I believe was having an Assistant Scoutmaster responsible for Webelos recruitment, and an adventurous and varied outdoor program. We kept in contact with 4 packs year round, getting to know the Webelos leaders and Cubmasters, helping at pack special events, supplying Den Chiefs etc. We didn't wait for february and expect the webelos to just appear at our door. There are a number of troops that camp once or twice a month but do the same thing or go to the same places over and over. I visited a troop website that bragged on the number of times they camped and published their camping log. They camped a lot, but in over two years they had only been to five or six different campgrounds. There is more to outdoor adventure than weekend camping. We hiked, climbed and rappelled, went caving, skiing (snow and water), toured aircraft museums, fish hatcheries, built igloos, bike hikes, canoeing, We never did the same thing or went to the same place twice in a year and seldom twice in two years. The boys had a blast and word got around that we did cool stuff and the kids responded to that. We seldom had a boy leave the troop before he turned 18. My son is in an adventure club at school. (the teacher recruits guys he sees in scout t-shirts to help as instructors) last year they took three trips each to a different place for a different activity. they grwe this year from 12 students to 42, just by word of mouth. Scout-aged kids want the kind of adventure the scouting program promises, but they don't like being fooled. If you tell them you are going to offer adventure then you had better keep the promise. Once you have the boys you need to get to know the parents. Match specific people to specific tasks based on their skills and interests. You should be able to register an adult from 1/3 of the families in the troop into scouting positions. There is a brochure on recruiting adult volunteers available through your council service center that will help. Good luck, Bob White

Thank you FOG but you seem to be missing the entire core of the point. You control what you refer to yourself as, and that has an affect on your attitude and behavior. At no time was this about how others refer to you.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ken you have a very wise father and he taught you an important lesson. How we use words matters. Not only do our thoughts shape our words, but our words shape our thoughts. I had a friend who had a dog that he named stupid the day he brought it home. He did so because he thought that that it would be funny to lean out the door and call out "come here stupid" and see the reaction on peoples faces. This was an ordinary dog and did the ordinary dog stuff but by the time he was a year old guess what happened? My friend was amazed to disover that the dog really was stupid. Of course it wasn't really, he did silly stuff just like any animal, but all my friend saw was the "stupid stuff" because that is what he conditioned himself to see. In fact he trained himself better than he trained the dog. It's human nature. Hillcourt's admonishment to me as a young scoutmaster made a huge difference in the way I thought about my role in the unit. "Your troop was the one that you were in when you were a boy" he said. "This troop belongs to the sponsor and the boys. You and your assistants have the priviledge of being their scout leaders. You are here to serve not to be in charge, and if you tell yourself and others that it is "your troop" then that is how you will run things. You are no less affiliated with a unit by saying "I am the Scoutmaster of the troop at (insert name here)", or "I am the Scoutmaster at troop (insert # here)", or "the troop I serve as Scoutmaster" but whether you realize it or not when you say "my troop" you cannot help but to act upon that image. I cannot help but think about how my friend would have treated that dog differently if he had named it Gorgeous, or Einstein. I am sure that it affects us at other levels such has district and council etc., but that doesn't concern me as much as the work we do with the boys. other posters have riduled this by comparing it to 'my wife', 'my car', 'my kids' i'm sorry but you are missing the point. Unless she is married to someone else as well, she is your wife. Unless someone else is their parent they are your kids, unless you stole the car it is your car, even if there is a mortgage on the house if you live there it is your house. But it is not your troop, it belongs to the CO and the boys. Saying "my troop" is taking ownership and we don't own it. To say i am the Scoutmaster takes responsibility and that is our role in the program. I do not expect everyone to have an epiphany and suddenly change. I know many of you will not even take the time to consider this at all.But what is the worst thing that can happen if you did try this? If you are convinced that the words you use don't matter than it will do you no harm to try. If words do matter than it might do the boys some good. So what do you have to lose?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I respect your opinion Mark and I am not saying anything other than this is a personal choice one makes. But I would counter that by being willing to change old habits, acknowledge that words matter, and by realizing that what I say can affect how I act, I am in fact taking the much broader view and not a narrower inflexible one. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just for clarification MK "Our troop" was not my phrase. It was one offered by someone else that I said I prefered over "my". The terms I was raised on were "the troop I serve", "the scouts I serve", "The troop's SPL". it is not my troop it is the Co's and the boys', They are not my scouts, they belong to their parents and the troop. He is not my SPL, I did not elect him and I am not a scout he serves. I don't know of any leader who feels less connected to a unit by refering to the unit or themselves in this manner. If anything it reinforces their role with the unit. I appreciate that this may be a new viewpoint for for many, and that not all misuse the term "my" but here is a way do distance yourself from those who do misuse it and to set a more positive example for others as a reminder of the adult's role with the troop. It's a personal choice that I see makes for better leadership. Bob White

Welcome, Please feel free to respond in French. I am happy to know there is scouting in Viet Nam again since it was banned in 1975. What is the name of the scouting program there today? Bob White

My error, The districts I have been involved in have always re-chartered at the end of the calendar year. Bob White

I would be interested in anyone finding anything in any resource available in the BSA that says the troop belongs to anyone other than the Charter Organization and the boys. I will agree that over the years many (not all) adult leaders have "taken ownership" of the scout unit. It is not only obvious by the words they choose but by the degree of authority they exert over the troop. In a previous post some of my examples were brushed off as bad leadership and unrelated to the leaders use of terms like "my troop". What is being overlooked is the ability of language to affect attitude and for attitude to influence actions. One of the reasons they acted the way they did was there conviction that they were "In Charge" because they were convinced it was their troop. An opinion they reinforced whenever they said "my troop". Reinforcing the attitude that this is "the troop I serve" as opposed to "my troop" will affect the way you lead in a very positive manner. This is not a unique practice, many other scouters in the US have this outlook on their role and it does make a difference. It's a personal choice. What harm would it be if simply by being more conscious of your role in scouting it made for better scouting for boys? Bob White

I was born ham and beans, raised chili, now a practicing sloppy joe. Dabbled in Philly Steakburger but lacked the committment. Disregard post. I forgot that i have no sense of humor. Very sorry, won't happen again. Bob White

Twocubdad, We original four posters and others all agree that each style has a purpose and a place. One poster has tried to insuate that we see three styles as good and one as bad. That is just his misunderstanding, not what the BSA teaches or what any of us said. #2 All four are about teaching, certainly "coaching" is the most obvious, but all four styles can be used in developing skills, knowledge, and values, which is what we are here to teach. #3 If you lead properly, enforcemnet and compliance is voluntary and self-imposed. The four styles of leadership focus on how to select the right style for the specific person and task so that cooperation results. Punishment, negative reinforcement, forced compliance is not a element of leadership, in scouting or out of scouting. Bob White

This link will take you to the Pack 2003 Quality Unit Award. The first column represents the work you have done this year, the second column is for goal setting for 2004. You have untill December 31, 2003 to complete the requirements. It's a good idea to complete this form each year whether you earn the award or not. It is a good benchmark of how the unit is doing in delivering the scouting program. Keep in mind that the National Quality Unit Ward reflects the minimum activity that a pack shoulld be providing to the boys. A good unit will not just meet, but exceed the requirements for the award. Hope this helps, Bob White

Ed, after reading your last post I have a far better understanding of what causes our differences. I will no longer challenge the things you post. I will ask the same courtesy of you. Bob White

NJ, according to the orginator of the thread, the purpose was "I was just looking for reactions to the "my" troop mentality and if it is good or bad or what. I think we have stayed on topic according to that explanation. I think it's bad because the terms you use create the mindset that affects your behavior. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"You need to get a life Bob. If you actually searched through all those posts then you need to get out more. I was just remembering what you had posted." Ed the comment you made was false and baseless. I took a few minutes to gather some facts. Had you done so first perhaps you would not have presented your statement as truth. The difference I am trying to express is that of leader and participant. I see an adult WB patrol member as I see a youth patrol member. It is indeed their patrol if they belong to it. FOG or you can say "my wife" unless she is married to someone else as well that would seem to be an accurate statement right? But an adult leader is not the sole owner of the troop, and to say so on a regular basis really does affect how you view your relationship to the unit. Saying that you get to serve as Scoutmaster of Troop 215 will give a person an entirely different view of thier role. When you say "My troop" often enough you act as if you are "the boss". The Scoutmasters who say say "if you don't like the way I do it find someone else" see it as "my troop". The leaders who set their own rules rather than follow the scouting methods see it as "my troop". The SM who takes offense to scouts who are absent due to school, family, or sports conflicts see it as "My troop". The SM who "tells" the committee what to do sees it as "My Troop". When you say "my troop" you behave like it's "My Troop". The SM and other adults are not there to be troop members but to develop the troop members. You are there to serve the needs of the boys not to be one, or to own their program. A boy is a leader in the troop. The adults are leaders of a troop. There is a big difference. Attitudes affect actions. No one has said you have to change what you say. I am saying that what you say can change how you lead. What harm can exchanging an attitude of ownership with an attitude of service do to the program? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have not heard of any plans at this time to bring these two programs into parity. BW