Bob White

Awe shucks no Ed, us farm boys ain't never bin to see no big city scout'n. Just for the record Ed I grew up in the Chicago area and I have organized three urban scouting troops all sponsored by either the Boy's Club or the Salvation Army. Each has lasted over 15 years of continual service and each follow the scouting program. Only the "where" changes not the "why" or the "how". Not everything in scouting is supported by facts? I hope you are not suggesting that supporting it with fantasy is a good action plan. Pardon me Ed but that philosophy doesn't even fly here in our primitive little hamlet. Bob White

She may be interested in knowing that she probably ruined a pretty good pair of pants. The army did testing for zip off style pant legs and fiundt that it required to light weight of a material for the zipper to hold up and that the pieces faded at different rates do to varying exposure to sun and detergents and so that looked very bad in a short period of time. The army determined that zip-offs were not functional for therir purposes and the BSA has adopted that position as well based on the military's findings. Bob White

Far right-handed:)

Not everything in troopoperation is in the SM Handbook. The SMHB does contain the 7 element troop meeting planner, and the outline for earning meritbadges as a personal effort by the boy learning topics that he has selected that are interesting to him. The best resource to substantiate what many have said here is the original one I directed Beaver to, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual page 27. This is also covered in Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. Bob White

The BSA describes the Charter Organization Representative as "the head of the scouting department in the organization" (Troop Committee Guidebook pg 7, among other resource locations). I would say that is a significant role, wouldn't you?. Especially since he or she represents the owners of the unit. Bob White

The current G2SS policies include Laser Tag as a prohibited scouting activity. BW

The patrol method and troop operation do not rely on JLT. How you guide your Junior Leaders and what you do at PLs make a much more immediate impact. Follow what the Scout Handbook says scouting is and you can succeed. Bob White

"What do the BSA's program resources say about a suggestion that one "encourage heart-felt prayers," My first thought is that A SCOUT IS REVERENT. I haven't thed slightest notion what a generic prayer is, but is someone has promised to be reverent I would hope that they would make every prayer meaningful in their own way. "Second, what does the BSA say about encouraging boys to "debate political issues"? I know that the BSA thinks that communication skills are important, and that citizenship is a key element in advancement, and that developing citizenship is an aim. So I see no problem in the use of debate to help hone speaking skills, encourage knowledge of current events and the electoral process. HOWEVER, like any activity in scouting there should be some training involved first. And as the Sweet 16 of Safety points out, you should have an experienced person leading the activity. So I would recruit someone with actual debating experience to teach the rules and methodology of proper debating so that I was not just hosting a spitting contest. (as an aside) I would have the scouts defend the view that was contrary to the one they held personally. This would be a good lesson in learning to see life from both sides before you take a stand on an issue. Plus it takes greater skill and energy to do it well. Bob White

I agree that an orientation pamphlet is a useful communication tool in the way and content you describe. The Key-3 is a council/district term, it is not called that on the unit level in any BSA document but it is a useful way to explain the relationship between the unit leader, Committee Chair and Charter Organization Representative in a way familiar to most scout leaders. Bob White

Then why not have as your "policy manual" that "in all scouting related issues the troop will follow the related program practices and policies of the Boy Scouts of America. All other decions will be made through cooperation of the Scoutmaster, comittee chair, and COR based on the unique circumstances of the event and the needs and characteristics of those involved." This would avoid the problem of the original post of the COR doing the wrong job and of the troop eisley serves from violating the advancement procedures by not following the Scout Handbook in determining things like serving actively in a leadership role. Or PLC or troop committee telling a patrol who can be elected within their own patrol. Too often these "troop policies" are used as an excuse for not needing to be trained or learn the BSA program, because the troop has "their own policies". By letting everyone know up front that the policy of the troop is to follow the scouting program the only authority you need to reference are the scouting resources. Is there any reason why this could not work? Bob White

don't get me wrong KS, I'm a big fan of godd communication within a unit. What i'm talking about is that most of the rules, policies, by-laws, whatever you want to call them that unit comittees fret and debate over are already a part of the scouting program. Adults would save a lot of time, duplication, and contradictory methods by spending the time to learn the real scouting program than by trying to create their own. I would bet that you could take the by-laws created by any scout unit and by removing the information that is already contained in scouting resources along with anything that conflicts with scouting resources and reduce it to a half page of average sized type, double spaced. Then you still have to deal with the 'what-ifers' of the group. Those that want to know what if this happens or what if that happens. Why not wait until a situation arises and let the key 3 of the unit make a decision and then continue on scouting. Over management of scout units is a common malady. Sand lot baseball was ruined for kids when adults got involved and formed leagues. Kids used to decide when to play, who to play, what positions they would play, how long they would play, who would be on what team. Then adults came along. The adults make the schedule, the adults determine the position you play, the adults decide when and where you play. the adults choose the uniform etc. etc. The same thing happens when committiees start micromanaging the unit through by-laws rather than through a program philosophy and goals. Just an observation. Bob White

We are brought back to the misconception that a pack or troop committee operates by majority rule or vote. Nowhere is that required, and in only one sentence is the word 'vote' even used in the Troop Committee Guidebook to my knowledge. Decisions are made through cooperation of the unit key-3 and tasks are assigned to the committee members to complete. Every situation you bring up can be determined by the unit Key-3 (program head (CM or SM), CC & COR),or the PLC on a situational basis. Additional paperwork is just that. it creates beaurocracy that causes more problems than it solves and takes time away from the actual job of the committee. I am not saying that a unit cannot do it, or that there might not be some trivial amount of unit information that might result in a "by-law" or unit policy. It just is not a neccessity for a quality scouting program and can in fact create more hurdles than anything else. Bob White

"but this is the boys decision" Who made the boys responsible for delivering the scouting program? Nothing in the scouting program gives this responsibility to anyone other than adult leaders. Who taught the scouts that this was a good way to operate a troop? Adult leaders are responsible for training the junior leaders in the scouting progam. What BSA progran resources support this? No BSA program resource supports or endorses such a program. So who is guiding the junior leaders and where are they getting their information from? Bob White

I would agree that the merit badge programs at some camps, such as the one in our council, are out of whack with the goals and procedures of advancement. but I do not see that as a BSA created problem or a troop one, but a culture created by the individual summer camp. I know that we are looking at how it is done here and looking to make major revisions. Our primary goal is to do more merit badge instructioon and less testing, unless we can do a quality, measuarable job, of individual testing. This will of course upset some folks who have come to measure the quality of a summer camp by the number of MBs brought home, but that is a condition we allowed to be created as a council and so we will have to take the heat for it as we change. Bob White

Beaver, you will get a variety of personal opinions on this topic at this site. Take them for what they are personal opinions. I urge you to make scouting decisions based on the scouting program. See page 27 of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual (#33088D) for the BSA's method of incorporating merit badges into troop meetings. let the BSA determine the program you deliver whenever possible. Hope this helps, Bob White

I know of nothing in the BSA program that measures unit quality by advancement other than one requirement of the Quality unit award requiring 50% of the troop to advance one rank in a charter year. There is of course the promise in the Scout handbook that if a scout participates in the patrol and troop activities he should be able to advance to First Class in about one year. But I hardly see that as a bad thing or a difficult task if a unit is providing at least a basic program. Eagle counting, merit badge factories, and the like, are artificial program elements designed and supported by individuals who do not follow the program. Advancement is designed by the BSA to be a by-product of an active program not the program itself. I agree there are units that misuse and mis-apply the advancement program but I see no evidence that altering the program will give these units better leadership. Bob White

I am not anti by-law, I am anti-duplication and contradiction. I have not seen a unit by-law that was needed that was not already covered by the scouting program or a decision that could be made as needed by the PLC. For instance the PLC should be determining elections not the adults and since the PLC changes over time they should not be tied to someone elses decision. The way funds are spent should depend on the needs of the program as determined by the PLC, not dictated to them. How a boy may move between the patrols is covered to a degree by the BSA program resources and is a decision best made based on the needs and characteristics of the scout not as a fixed policy. The process of discipline is covered by the the scouting manuals and the guide to safe scouting. Troop finances are the job of the troop treasurer and the team of the Committee Chair, COR and Scoutmaster. Since these people change and the needs of the troop changes to have a static policy is uneeded and inefficient. The guidelines you need to operate a scout unit are already written for you in the resources of the scouting program. So I am not anti-by-law, I am pro scouting methods. Big difference. Bob White

The Insignia Guide refers to both cloth badges and square knots which are also represented by metal pin-on awards as the reason. Bob White

Gene, look at page 11 of the Troop Committee Guidebook, Then read pages 13 through 18. Bob White

"Technically, you shouldn't wear both a knot and the medal for the same award at the same time." Technically, that is not what the manual says. The Insignia Guide says that "Generally, when a cloth badge is worn the metal one is not." It does not specifically restrict such a display. However members are admonished to "make every effort to keep their uniform neat and uncluttered" so regularly displaying two badges that have the same meaning would seem to be in conflict with that statement. Bob White

Yes, according to the Venturing Leaders Manual page 331, "it may not be more than 3" in diameter and is worn 2" below the shoulder seam on the right sleeve". Bob White

I know of no real facts that supports your premise Ed. I have been a scout leader in the midwest and in upstate New York and do not recall having to adjust any of the scout methods or aims to accomodate the change in region. I have worked with unit leaders all over the country and we have never found the need to change meeting agendas, unit operation, training content or any part of the scouting program. Differences exist because we are a personality driven program. Each unit varies because the members of each unit are different. Changes within a unit invariably occur as personalities change. The one constant available for every unit is the official scouting program. Units that follow it have more in common with each other than units that do not. The problems that Rooster sites in his initial post comes from units who have made a decision to not follow the program. The solutions he proposes in a later post can almost all be found within the written program resources. If a unit or district want a better program then they need to follow the scouting program better. The fault is with the cooks not with the cookbook. There is more to scouting than dressing like a scout. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I find no definitive uniform regulation that either supports or denies the wearing of the AOL on the official Venturing uniform shirt. Although the only Cub Scout or Boy Scout rank mentioned in the Venturing Leader Manual that I find is the Eagle rank. on the other hand the Insignia Guide 2003-2005 says to follow the regulations for the Boy Scout field uniform for the placement of awards on the Venturing uniform. The Arrow of light patch on the boy Scout Uniform is worn as an award not a rank badge and signifies that the wearer has earned the highest award of Cub Scouting. That could imply that the arrow of light patch (not the knot) could be worn by a youth member of Venturing. When in doubt I side with the scout. I see no harm in the youth wearing the patch below the left shirt pocket of the official Venturing uniform. I do not find any BSA documentation saying otherwise. Bob White

Sorry LauraT7 but the idea of a tweener is not a concept of scouting or one that serves you or the scout to the fullest. JASM is a youth leadership role just as any other non-elected youth office. The scout is selected by the SPL just as the QM, scribe or any other non-elected office (but with the guidance and approval of the SM). Just as with those other youth positions his role will vary from troop to troop. Your ability to train, guide and develop his character and abilities is no different than it is with any other youth position. To say that the policies of the YP defeats the purpose of the position is totally unsupported by facts. The JASM is a great tool when used as designed by the program for the purpose it is designed for, to maintain the activity and interest of the older boys who have already served in other troop leadership positions or as the need arises to fulfill advancement requirements based on a scouts individual needs and characteristics. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

returning to roosters original post in this thread, I can agree on parts and disagree on aothers. i will agree that scouting is a wonderful tool that can develop family and character in young and old alike. I believe that as long as a single scout unit exists that does not follow the scouting program, then there are too many units not following the program. But keep in mind that much of what Rooster refers to are localized problems and can only be used to establish the program quality in his community. With all due respect Rooster as you said you are only going by what you see in your district, which is about 1/1000 of the entire program. Your not even seeing one piece of the pies. At best you are seeing a peice of crust of one tiny piece of the pie. We are each responsibilble for the quality of the community we live in. And we each live in a variet of communities. In scouting that community could be your own family, unit, district, council or nation level of scouting. No matter which community we choose to embrace we have a responsibility to it's quality. If the unit you swerve is not keeping the promise of scouting then you have a responsibility to fix that. The same for your district. If you see the problems such as Rooster has observed the problem is not in the program but in the way it is delivered, and that means that as the adult volunteers the problem and the solution is us. I would suggest the question should not be "What is your program about? but "do you understand what the scouting program is about and are you delivering it?" Good leaders ask this question of themselves before and after each meeting and event. My two cents, Bob White