Bob White

Is this just limited to troops? How about Packs, Crews, and Ships? After all there is more to the Boy Scouts of America then just Boy Scouts.

How do you pay attention to millions of kids you cannot see? And if you are convinced they are not taking part in these adventures on their own then WHY are YOU not making them available through Scouting? Why complain and not DO anything about it?

I am convinced that the biggest factor in attendance is program quality. The second most important factor is promotion by the Roundtable staff at every possible opportunity, camporees, district dinners, district meeting, summer camp, training events. If a RT commissioner or a RT staff member doesnt promote their next Roundtable every time they talk with a scouter, or a group of scouters, then shame on them One of the biggest challenges we have in Roundtable attendance is the expansion of district service areas as councils become larger and districts become fewer. In the district I live in with the Scout Roundtable located in the center of the district there are units that would have to drive an hour each way to attend Roundtable. They would have to leave home no later than 6PM and would not return until nearly 10PM. For that kind of time commitment, and expense, you will need to guarantee a FABULOUS Roundtable, and that is a big challenge. My staff and I have done surveys with nearly 100 Scout roundtable commissioners across the country and found a direct correlation between the distance the furthest Scoutmaster has to drive for Roundtable and the percentage of units that attend roundtable. Districts where everyone lives within 15 miles of the RT location have far better attendance than districts where the leaders must drive 15 miles or more. The further away the leaders live the less likely they are to attend. We had Districts where leaders live within 10 miles that had truly atrocious Roundtables that had 90% of the units attend. If you live close enough evidently your standards are far less demanding. On the other hand, we had a District that in less than a year after training had people driving 65 miles every month to get to Roundtable. That can only be attributed to program quality. So like everything else it is a balance. In this case its the three legged stool. Program quality, promotion, distance, all play a role. The greater the distance the more vital an outstanding program becomes. I hope this helps BW

We climbed trees on our own while our parents were at work or doing other things, so again I ask you, if we agree that kids do these things without adults around...then how is it you know they don't do them anymore? Didn't occur to you that you just aren't around to see what they do? You brought these activities up, not me. If they are so all fired important then why do you not introduce the scouts you serve to these "adventures"? Why just complain about it and not DO something about it?

If your point was that these are such important elements of childhood then why have you not done them with the scouts you serve? You make it sound like kids don't do these things? Is that not all the more reason for you to bring them these "adventures" through the Scouting program you lead? So if these activities are so important why do you not do them? And if you do them with Scouts then what exactly are you lamenting about? If your point is that kids use to do these things when there were no adults around, then how can you possibly know that they are not doing those things still...it's just that you are not around to see them. You have no evidence that kids don't still have adventures, and whether or not they are the same adventures we had as a children is immaterial. And you know that they are still allowed in scouting, but eveidently they are not something you have exposed the scouts to for some reason. So basically, these seem very hollow complaints whose only purpose is to feed DeanRx's concerns so that he can be as pessimisstic as you are on the topic dispite the fact that you honestly can't be sure that kids don't do them, and that you don't help kids learn about them even though you could.

Glad you are thinking ahead. Here are some other things besides the cost of gear and replacememht to consider. How are you transporting these? Will you always have enough vehicles available to roof carry them? Will you always have a vehicle you need to pull a trailer? Will you have enough vehicles for people and all the gear? There is the annual trailer registration, the indivudual boat registration, the liability insurance, storage location. I am not saying not to do it or that it cannot be done, but boat ownership is a big responsibility and not cheap even with small boats. Remember the boat owners creed and the definition of a boat. "The happiest day in a boat owner's life is the day he buys a boat and the day he sells it. Boat; noun; a hole in the water you throw money into. Mate BW

Haul around a phonograph 40 years ago??? Man how square were you? I was 13 years old 40 years ago, and like every kid I knew I had a pocket transistor radio. No kid only bought one comic book, and no kid I knew only read them once. Adults used to make rules that comics and transistors couldn't go on campouts just as the adults today carry on the rant by not allowing I-Pods, Gameboys, and cell-phones. If troop leaders can't make scouting more fun than a Game-Boy then give the kid a break and let them do SOMETHING they actual enjoy. Kids haven't changed and neither have adults, some just have very selective memories. So GW when was the last time you did any of the things you mentioned with the scout unit you serve?????

Sorry I thought the topic was what kids used to do and now supposedly can not do in scouting. I did not realize we had switched topics. So outside of scouting, which kids are not sledding anymore or climbing trees or exploring caves? is it your contention that none of them do that, or that fewer do that? If fewer perhaps they are doing other things? Things that were not available 40 years ago or were more expensive to do than today, like rappelling, and canoeing, soccer, geocaching just to name a few. I know you think that all the kids are glued to computers, but I remember 40 years ago when adults claimed that all kids did was listen to music and read comis books. So now the music is on I-pods, and the comic books have been animated and put on the computer. Seems like kids still are drawn to them and adults still complain about them. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I guess my question would be...When did you last take the scouts in the unit you serve to sled down hills on garbage can lids or any of the other activities you mentioned? Because if you haven't then isn't it more your fault than society's or the BSA's? After all you know that they are not prohibited activities. And if you have, then you really have no reason to complain about it since the scouts are evidently still doing those things.

"One common thread through many replies is having two way discussions and making time to have them." So kraut-60 if I could ask you a question. Is your goals to accomplish the purpose of Roundtables, or to meet the wants of the majority of Scoutmasters in your District? If you want to have them be able to talk about whatever they want then be prepared to abandon any hope of achieving the purpose of Roundtables. If this forum has shown you nothing else it should show you that a number of scouters want to discuss what they believe is wrong with the world of scouting in the BSA. While you, as a commissioner of the BSA, have the obligation to support the program, procedures and policies of the BSA. As you have witnessed here these opposing goals may make for interesting reading, but they make for a very poor Roundtable that will quickly deteriorate into one big gripe fest. Since misery loves company you will find that those who want to come and complain about scouting will quickly chase away those who are looking to enjoy the program and learn how to lead it. So while discussions are important make sure you have someone you trust leading the discussion and that you have a positive goal in sight for where you want the discussion to lead. I hope you take the time to check out the training I mentioned earlier. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Sledding down the big hill on garbage can lids. Swimming at the pond. Climbing trees, swinging from ropes, exploring caves, building go-karts, punching contests, all the fun stuff." The fact is that except for the punching contests none of those other activities are prohibited by the BSA. Ann the punching contest isn't actually prohibited just the the last punch where a scout inflicts a ophysical injury on another person. And that's part of the problem DeanRx. there are people both in and out of scouting who by their own lack of training or misunderstanding of the program will lead you to believe that these activities are prohibited when they really aren't.

For a day activity all you would be required to have in the way of adult leadership is one registered adult over the age of 21 and another adult who is either a registered leader or a parent of a Scout who is in the den at the activity. However...I would check with the district camporee committee and see if 1) Webelos are invited, and 2) There are separate age and skill level appropriate activities for the Webelos to take part in as prescribed by the BSA. If there are no activities for the Webelos Den to take part in then I would not take them. Going to a camporee for the day to watch other kids do things is not a very enticing activity for active boys. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's a matter of balance. There are times when it is appropriate to share what "can't be done". Certainly in a training situation is one of those circumstances. If no one said what the don'ts were, or at least told you how to get accurate information as to what the don'ts were, then when you found out that what you were doing something wrong you would say "well I went to training and "they" never told me I couldn't do this". So you need to be informed, but there needs to be a balance. Most BSA training courses are predominantly "how to" in their design, and definitely the training for the trainers stress teaching the "how to" and not the "how not to" for any skill or topic. But with trainers just like with unit leaders, what you teach them to do and what they actually do are not always the same. But that is a difficult thing to control at any level and it makes the selection process for all adult volunteers in scouting all the more important. Take Youth Protection training. The training itself is prinarily "how to" protect youth and "how to" react to and report concerns. Very little of it is about "what not to do" when it comes to interacting with youth. However, in the hands of a bad trainer it could quickly become that. It returns again to the difference you will encounter between those who know and use the BSA program correctly, and those who do not know it or misuse it. As an excercise, review the BSA's youth Handbooks and the adult Handbooks and you will see they are written in a very positive "how to" and not a "Don't do" manner. The same is true of all the BSA training courses. The experiences you have had DeanRx are unfortunate but the examples you have shared thus far were not caused by the BSA program, or by people who followed it.

DeanRx The thing you need to realize is that in both the examples you gave the problem was not one of BSA rules but a matter of the lack of courtesy and the training or lack of training that the leaders you came in contact with exhibited. Tap-outs were replaced by call-outs about 15 years ago. While that is long enough that scouts no longer learn about tap outs you would be amazed at the number of adults who still harken back to they youth and still try to do Tap-outs in the OA ceremonies. And while doing tap-outs certainly is a problem, simply calling them tap-outs is simply a generational thing and does not require a correction like you experienced. The OA flap thing is similar in a way. Were the Scouts correct about what proper uniforming is? Yes, they were. Should they have corrected you? Not unless you asked, or unless you were telling someone the wrong information. But you were simply wearing a patch that you believed was proper to wear. No harm, no foul. And certainly nothing that the BSA tells people to correct others about. There are no "uniform police" in Scouting. As far as the two deep leadership at the outhouses, the leaders saying that were wrong. They either misunderstood the BSA training, or they were improperly trained. The is no way to really tell which it was, I can only tell you that they were wrong about the rule. Two-deep leadership is about the adults needed for the overall unit activity or outing. The approriate 'safe-guard' during the activity or outing is "no one-on-one adult/youth contact". One adult walking two or more Cubs to the latrines is in keeping with that rule. Going back to your concerns in your original post...being told you should not wear a patch, or that having another person misunderstand the two deep leadership rule does not in any way prohibit you from teaching young people to be self reliant or good leaders. Do not think that because other do not know or do not follow the BSA program that you can't unse it and be successful in achieving the goals of Scouting and have the scouts you serve have a great time in scouting. My point here is that your complaints are not with the scouting program, you are being frustrated by leaders who do not know, or who misuse, the scouting program. I heartily agree with you that such behavior can be VERY frustrating. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Kraut 60 A good place to start is "What is the purpose of Roundtable?" Unless you know what it is supposed to be, you cannot tell if you are deliverying it successfully. Just as there is a specific purpose for having a pack meeting or troop meeting there is a specific purpose and goal to Roundtable. It is not about announcements, although it is about providing information, there are other ways to do that besides announcements. It is not about sitting around and complaining about things although it is about sharing knowledge and experiences. All three Roundtable programs are designed differently, so if your Cub Roundtable and your Boy Scout Roundtable follow the same model there is a problem. In Boy Scouting, the purpose of Roundtable is to provide Unit leaders the "Will to Do" and the "Skill to Do" a quality unit program. Everything done within the meeting is directed at effecting one or both of those purposes. Anything that does not directly effect a leaders confidence and enthusiasm for scouting and their role in scouting, or does not increase their leadership skill or scout skills, does not belong in a Roundtable program. My recommendation is that you download the Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner training http://old.scouting.org/commissioners/roundtable/34256.pdf Then make plans to attend the week long Boy Scout Roundtable Conference at Philmont Traiing Center. You can no more learn how to provide a quality Roundtable over an Internet forum then you can learn to deliver a quality Troop program over one. A good Roundtable is great asset to a local Scouting community and I congratulate you for wanting to do a good job, that is the first step to success in any challenge. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"those assets exist solely to be put at risk, not to be protected" What??? Do you have a home only in hopes of losing it in a fire? Do you drive a car in hopes that you will crash it? Do you save money only in hopes that it will be stolen? Who actual wants their assets put at risk? The purpose of assets are to use them not to lose them. What assets do have have Beavah that you wish put at risk?

Jansport's description for this specific bage refers to a "bag bar shelf", which would suggest that the Pack is designed for the the sleeping bag to go on top and not underneath.

I think if you are going to compare the BSA program rules and procedures that you need to compare them with countries of similar culture and social norms. I really doubt thet Thailand has the same litigious culture that has developed in the US nor does their scouting program have the same assets at risk that the BSA has. The idea thet you cannot have an adventurous and fun program and still remain within the safety procedures developed over the past 100 years of scouting is just wrong. Whether it is the result of lack of training, poor training, or just personal translation of the rules is immaterial, and it is still wrong. Scout units all over the country still engage in a multitude of activities at all adventure levels and do so within the structure of the program. The Guide to Safe Scouting is an aide to leades to avoid the mistakes that others have learned from over the years, it is not a shackle to keep scouts from adventure. Most of Dean's concerns can be traced to him getting misinfomation or from misunderstanding the actual policy or procedure and its purpose.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ahh the "good old days". There are more things for a scout to do today then there were in the 60s. Communities have more resources now then 40 years ago, technology has made more adventures available to more people of less skill than was available 40 years ago. Is there any generation that did not look back to their childhood and think is was a better time. Even people I know who grew up in poverty in the depression still look back and are able to see things they liked better than today. Memory is a fickle thing, and we are fickle animals. Nor was scouting perfect even in Baden-Powell's day. I am curious how some of the posters in this thread would react if their sons came home from their last campout to tell how their Scoutmaster gave them each a massage? AS a scout in the 80s Dean saw scouting through the eyes of a youth and now he is learning to see it through the eyes of an adult and it's different...it has always been different. Interestingly enough the time that Dean harkens back to is considered by many to be one of the low ebbs in the scouting movenment, and yet Dean remembers it fondly. A tribute to both the strength of the program and the leadership of Dean's scout leaders. There is nothing in any of the rules or procedures of the BSA that prevent Dean from doing the same things with the Cubs he serves today. There is no rule that says that a leader cannot touch a Scout appropriately. There is no cause for making a scout run a mile unless it is to fulfill a requirement for advancement or an award. That kind of punishment is pointless and there are so many more effective ways to deal with Scouts that there is simply no reason to resort to such tactics. Why would a Scout leader want to give drugs to someone elses child? We are trained as program leaders not pharmacists or physicians. Stick to your training. The 2/3 rule Dean offers is subjective and unmeasurable. I have no idea where such a method is taught or recommended, but I would doubt it has any valid basis or meaningful support. Our role is to deliver a scouting program and not to punish other peoples children. If a scout's behavior is interfering with that delivery simply return them to their parents for punishment and continue your job of delivering the program to those who want to be Scouts. Are we a litigious society? Yes we are, but the BSA did not create that problem, they are just another victim of it, as are all of us. Dean's complaint and frustration on that matter is better aimed at lawyers and politicians not at the BSA or its programs. Dean ponders..."I truely wonder if the adult leadership that is supposed to be guiding these yougn men to become strong, independent, leaders...." Actually Dean the mission of the BSA is to help prepare young people to make ethical decisions through out their lives based on the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Not everyone becomes a leader but that does not lessen their value as a good person or their ability to be a good citizen, neighbor, friend, or parent. I hope that as you learn more about the Cub Program and the other programs of the BSA you will find a balance between your memories of your youth and the opportunities avaibale today for you to deliver a quality program to the youth you serve. Best wishes BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In cub scouts there is no such thing a a personal fundraiser or a den fundraiser. All fundraising activity is done at the pack level. The Scouts were in uniform, collecting funds, representing the BSA and the pack's chartered organization. The pack has every right to expect to be informed and consulted about ANY activity in which the youth are representing their pack. As cubmaster you should want to know about this activity in advance and you should have made sure that the committee was informed and approved of it. Using the door to door sales as an example of the same thing is erroneous since the committee was aware of the door to door sales prior to it taking place but was not informed about these two scouts selling outside the store.

"Is it just me, or has this actually happened?" The good news is that it has not actually happened, the bad new is it is just not you. Some other adults see things the way you do as well, it simply an exaggeration of the facts. If you looked at the Guide to Safe Scouting with a little less skepticism you would see that it has many do statements. And really just one page of "Don'ts" which lists some prohibited activities. There are still more things available for Cubs to do then you could possible do in the few years they are in the program. However, for the scouts you serve to see that you will likely need to overcome your current attitude. BW

"Certainly the nights and time would count toward the Camping Merit Badge, if under the direction of a qualified merit badge counselor." Buffalo Skipper, are you suggesting that the merit badge counselor needs to be on every outing for it to count toward the fullfillment of a merit badge requirement??? Because that simply is not true. The scout has to fulfill the requirement but nothing requires the counselor to be there.

Is OA worth it? Perhaps. It would depend on the individual and what they are looking for in the OA, and the state of the local OA program at that time. In the council I serve the OA has not been of interest to me sa a member. It does very little in the way of youth training and is for the most part run by a group of adults that have been in place for many years. They do two weekends of service a year at the local scout camp and that is about the extend of their activities. As a unit leader I have always supported the OA's mission and never discourage scouts from membership. None but a few scouts who have gone through the orderal have had an interest in returning for other activities or for earning their Brotherhood. I am sure that this is a local problem and probably not indicative of the situation in every council. But it shows that the local Chapter needs to do some things differently, but as long as these same scouters are core to the local OA program I would not expect any significant changes anytime soon.

What is the difference between the type of parents you are discussing and those Scout leaders who do the same thing?

The Court of Honor is a scout activity and as such must be operated within the policies of the BSA regardless of where it is held. The solution would be to have the court somewhere other than the family's home and then once the court is over if the family wants to host a reception at their home they can. This would allow adults leaders to choose to not to go or to change out of their uniform before attending. But just because the court in in someone's home it does not put them in charge of the activity any more than having it at a school puts the school in charge of the activity. Someone is going to need to show some backbone here and get control of the situation back into the hands of the unit and the BSA policies.