Bob White

WHAT? Well that just goes to show you how tricky urban legends can be. I have never seen such a slute described in any BSA training or program publication. More likely this was a local affectation that was missed in editing or assumed correct by the proff readers. Does anyone know of a BSA resource that instructs this salute?

That's Okay Ed, I didn't think you would answer the question, I just wanted to point out your contradictory statements. It's a very simple policy, I am confident that the majority of the forum readers understand it and will abide by it. What you choose to do with what you think it means is of course up to you. Bob White

That sounds familiar Accu40, but what doesn't appear in any scout book that I have ever seen are the other salutes suggested, with the exception of the congressionally approved hand over the heart. The scout sign over the heart and the rather star trekkish one you described previously are not scout salutes or approved hand salutes for the American flag according to the flag code. Bob White

Ed please explain this then, You said "So a squirt gun is ok!" you also said regarding squirt guns "It doesn't fit the definition of firearm & isn't listed" Well Ed the definition you provided does not match the characteristics of a BB gun either, but you seem to think that is against the rules. But then you said "I don't believe the rule applies for BB guns & not squirt guns. I never said that." It seems you did say that Ed (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Rusty, This will be easy... Your understanding of the patrol system is the correct one according to the BSA program. Bob White

The problem with merit badge classes as a side event during troop meeting is that the major purposes of troop meetings are patrol planning, patrol development and leadership practice. The patrol leader cannot lead a divided group. he cannot lead if he is a participant in a class. Troop meetings are fine for introducing MBs but the program is specific that troop meeting are not for MB class. Can you do it in the troop you serve? Sure, you can also play dodge ball the entire meeting. It's up to you what kind of program the scout gets. It can be as bad as you choose it to be. If you determine that the quality and purpose is to gain merit badges than using leadership developmentm skill practice and activity planning time is a good way to meet your goals. But it is not good scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Acco40 my friend, what does your handbook say? Bob White

"It doesn't fit the definition of firearm & isn't listed." Neither does a BB gun,and neither are listed. So Ed, what leads you to believe that the rule applies to BB guns and not squirt guns when it says ANY firearm. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Please define what you mean as presentation.

Rusty before I can answer your question I have to ask one. Please do not take this wrong I simply need to know how deep an explaination to give. Do you understand the difference between a Venture Patrol and a Venturing Crew? Bob White

Ed, Is it your belief that the BSA allows you to point a BB rifle at a person, since it was not specifically identified and it does not meet the dictionary definition of firearm? What leads you to believe that a squirt gun is not included by the word ANY? Bob White

Ed, Is it your belief that the BSA allows you to point a BB rifle at a person, since it was not specifically identified and it does not meet the dictionary definition of firearm? What leads you to believe that a squirt gun is not included by the word ANY? Bob White

Linda, What does your scout handbook say? Bob White

This is an often traveled road that for some reason many volunteers still do not understand. The BSA has poilicies and regulations. Rules that every member and charter organization must follow to remain members and avoid litigation. These policies cover Membership, Uniforming, Safety, and Advancement. These rules are found for the most part in The Guide to Safe Scouting, The Insignia Guide, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, The Unit Money Earning Applicatiion, the Membership Application, and the Shared Responsibilities Agreement renewed each year in the annual charter application. Everything else in the scouting program are methods, guidelines, and best practices developed over the years by the BSA. It relies on the personal integrity of the volunteers to follow in order to deliver a quality "scouting" program to youth. If the leader does not keep the promises made to the youth in their handbook, if they do not use the methods of the scouting program, if the charter organization just wants to do stuff in a scout uniform that is their choice of the type of program they want to offer. It won't be scouting but until they violate a policy, all we can do on the council and district level is coach, educate and pray that they will either change or leave, and make room for someone willing to lead a scouting program. That independence is part of the Congressional Charter. Bob White

That is not correct packsaddle! My opinion about the rule is that the BSA does not want to be associated with pointing firearms at people. My interpretation of the rule is that the BSA does not want any type of firearm pointed at people. I hope you would agree this is different than what you repesented my interpretation to be. Bob White

The guide to safe scouting says "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unacceptable. Packsaddle writes; It is your interpretation (result of reading between the lines) that BSA's intent is "not want to be associated with pointing guns at people". While I agree with this sentiment I also note there's nothing like that in the wording. What do you mean there is nothing like that in the wording. Thats exactly the wording. "Pointing any type of firearm at any individual is unacceptable. They then go on in the parentheses to elaborate that they mean ANY firearm, no matter what it shoots. "Do you really think BSA is mostly worried about being associated with gun pointing, as opposed to the risk of an injury from a projectile" I think they are worried about both, so they have rules for both. Just because one worries them more does not mean they cannot control the other as well. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Urban scouting does indeed have unique problems; recruitment of adult role models, financing, availability of safe outdoor activity areas and such. What does not change are the aims and methods of the scouting program. The advancement requirements stay the same, the skills of leadership, troop structure and effective teaching elements all remain the same. The Program is the same, some packaging and some administration is different. It's the same show it's just a different theater. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

'reading between the lines' still seems necessary for its application to activities that are not specifically mentioned. When were we discussing activities not specifically mentioned? The rule specifically restricts activities where guns are pointed at people regardles of what comes out the barrel, bullets, paint, or laser. The activity of pointing the gun at people is the subject of the rule. If you look in the rules for fire arms use you will see that the scouts are restricted from shooting at human images. The BSA does not want to be associated with pointing guns at people. It's just that simple. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Packsaddle, the district and council committees and professionals have no authority within units until a violation of policy or regulations occur. We cannot force a unit to use good program methods. That is the responsibility of the adult leaders in the unit. COs who approve poor leaders must suffer their choice or commit to change. The Council and District can only make training and support available the quality of the program rests in the hands of the integrity of the individual leader. Bob White

Since when did any scouting regulation or policy have any force or affect outside of scouting activities?

Thank you for the kind words Gene, Where I believe your answers lay is in training. New Leader Essentials explains the relationship between the BSA, Charter Organization, Unit Committee and Leadership. Troop Committee Challenge explains the roles, responsibilities and operation of a committee. Scoutmaster/Asst SM Leader Specific Training explains the responsibilities of those offices and the methods of scouting. Introduction to Outdoor Skills Instructs you on the skills leading to First Class Wood Badge teaches advanced management skills The Troop Committee Guidebook I refered you to explained that the Charter Org owns the troop and is responsible for providing a COR and a Committee Chair and selecting and approving all remaining adult leadership. It goes on to explain the the scoutmaster is the program lead, the Committee chair works to support the troop activities through cooperation with the the scoutmaster and by assigning tasks to the committee members. The COR is the head of the scouting department and is reponsible for seeing that the needs of the CO are being met and for insuring that the adult leaders are trained and following the program. Forget about who answers to whom, that is a confrontation waiting to happen. Focus on cooperating to deliver a quality scouting program to the youth by each person fullfilling their specific responsibilities. Please feel free to personal message me for more assistance. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"They could have said, "paintball, lasertag and similar activities involving gun-like implements are inappropriate for Scouting." But that is not true. Activities using guns and gun like implememnets are not prohibited, pointing them at people is the inappropriate activity. Don't read between the lines just read the rule. "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unacceptable. Bob White

I'd go to the next District committee meeting and just say "hey guys the program says that finding and training MB counselors is the council and districts responsibility, when is it gonna happen?" BW

Like what packsaddle? The only MB program the council is responsible for is recruiting and trasining MB counselors. The merit badge program is an individual pursuit for scouts to follow. why is there any pressure on the troop? the troop's role is to introduce the MB oportunities and trigger the scouts curiosity and interests. What program does a council have to provide for you to do that? Bob White

What is being overlooked here is that it is not the beam of light being projected that the BSA is prohibiting. If it were then flashlight tag would have been included. It is the gun being pointed at a human being that the BSA is prohibiting. Training children to point gun-like objects at people does not belong as an element of the scouting program. It is poor behavioral modeling. Lets not go off the deep end and fear the banning of flashlights. The BSA did not ban the use of fire arms at appropriate targets, just aiming guns and gun-like objects at people. Bob White