Bob White

Any unit fundraiser must meet two basic criteria in scouting. 1. It must provide a product or service at a reasonable value. 2. It must be approved by the local Council. Selling tickets to a sporting or entertainment event (your choice as to where Pro-style wrestling fits in) would qualify as selling a product. As to whether or not it is an appropriate activity would be up to the local scout council to determine. (No individual or collective opinion on a forum such as this would mean diddly, only the decision of the local council on a case by case basis counts) Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Arrowhead is the emblem for the trek side. Remember that is one portion of the ranch. The Training Center is just as much a part of Philmont and has it's own recognition, based on the New Mexico state emblem. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

In all due respect Trail Pounder you cannot blame your lack of achieving Eagle on any church you did not attend. You did not complete the Eagle rank because you did not complete the Eagle rank requirements, isn't that correct? As a scout you took two oaths where you promised on "your" honor to do your duty to God and to be reverent. Your inability to to provide evidence that you fullfilled that promise was a requirement you left unfinished not a church. I hope what you meant (when you said that you won't let that happen to a scout you serve) is that you will help give him opportunities and guidance to keep the oath he swore to. Bob White

I never said the Philmont bull was an earned patch. It is only available through thre Tooth of Time Traders at Philmont and represents having been to or staffed at the Base. Since the red jac-shirt is an official uniform piece it should be worn correctly. As far as souvenir hats and t-shirts, to me they are only meaningful to the person who was there to buy it, but I see that as a different matter. Bob White

Now that we have the particulars of the Philmont bull out of the way I would like to address the comments about "sacred vestments". First I know of no such apparel or device in scouting. Secondly, one purpose of the scouting uniform is to tell a story of what you have accomplished or participated in as a scout or scouter. To wear uniform pieces that represent activities or accomplishments which you have not earned is being dishonest to yourself and others, and in my opinion, would reflect negatively on ones character and on their ability to set a good example as a leader. I see you were a chapter chief in the OA Adrianvs, does the Vigil Honor sash say "I have paid my fee and been to an OA thing, or is it just an emblem of the group that says "hey OA"? I don't believe it is either, nor do the emblems of Philmont or the other high adventure bases. There are no uniform police in scouting. The only thing that makes a leader wear a proper uniform is their own personal integrity. How you wear the uniform is an outward sign of that integrity. Should you wear the emblem of an activity you have not done or a place you have not been? What do you think is the honest thing to do? Bob White Bob White

The red wool jacket (jac-shirt actually) was first introduced at Philmont and for many years was known as the Philmont jac-shirt. The Bull signifies that the wearer has participated on a trek or at the training center or has worked on staff at Philmont. The position of the bull's tail is folklore. Some say to place the tail over the shoulder signifies that you have climbed the Tooth of Time, but that has never been a requirement and the only regulated position of the bull is that of being on the left side above the pocket. Hope this helps, Bob White

When you are selling Boy Scout popcorn you are doing so as an agent of the local BSA Council which is a non-profit organization and thereby is not required to collect or pay sales tax on a fundraising product.

Differnt parents come on scout outings for diferent reasons. If a parent were coming to evaluate the troop then perhaps having a sibling along could be counter productive. I would think that it depend on the individual parent and the individual sibling. For my taste there are too many variables to make a blanket judgement. Bob White

I would somply ask the parent to give a a wriiten note as to who the non-parent guardian of the child will be for the event and have the parents and guardian sign it. Then I would remind the guardian of their responsibilities for the child for the duration of the event. Mr. Jones obviously did not realize what his duties included prior to to the event. Bob White

I appreciate your opinion NWScouter, however the word you seem to be overlooking in Requirement #2 is "Requirement". It is not step #2, or option #2, or suggestion #2. The application specifically refers to it as a requirement, and it only allows for one reference to be left out, that of an employer and only if one does not exist. Bob White

If your leaders are not trained and/or do not follow the scouting program then I doubt that 12 pages will be enough to cover everything Charity. However if you require your leaders to attend training and to follow the scouting programs and policies then everything a parent would need to know is already covered in their childs scout handbook. The manual you are looking for is called the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Bob White

As a scout leader trainer one thing that I would like to think every adult listened to during training is that no two kids are alike. I can understand the urge to to say that no child belongs on a troop campout that isn't a boy scout, I would hope that a good leader would take the time to ask some questions, evelauate the situation and then make a scout-like decision. I do think that the activity of the campout should only be for the scouts unless they themselves choose to involve the sibbling in an appropriate way. But I can see perfectly legitimate circumstances where a parent would bring a sibling and take full responsibility for them while on the outing, while keeping them otherwise entertained while the patrols did their activities. I can see a parent with limited weekend opportunities wanting to spend time with more than one child at a time in a positive environment and relaxing in the outdoors, as well as enjoying the fellowship of scouters. So should a sibling come along? It depends. Talk to me about the specifics and then ask me to decide. Bob White

Hi Charity, This might help, Make sure that the scout is using the actual BSA Eagle application and not a locally doctored version. The actual requirement is Requirement #2 Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf. Parents/Guardians......... Religious................. Educational............... Employer (if any)......... Two others references..... Take note of a few things. >This is a requirement not an option. The references must be provided with only one allowed exception. A scout is not required to provide an employer IF he does not have one. >The candidate is only required to provide the names, contact info, and speak to the people ahead of time to insure they are willing to participate. The scout IS NOT to request or collect the reference information. (see page 31 of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, item #5) >No where does it require a religious leader to be the reference, only someone who can speak of the candidate's example of being reverent and his actions to fulfill his duty to God. I hope this helps, Bob White

I have never heard of individuals participating in home council activities needing Tour Permits. The tour permit asks for the type of Unit, suggesting it is for Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews. DS do you know of individuals such as OA members, attending an activity but not traveling as a troop, needing to file a tour permit? Bob White

WOSM the World Organization of the Scouting Movement lists Iraq Scouting as having 12000 members at last count, at this time the existence of an organization is not known for sure Afghanistan had scouting at one tome and last july steps were being taken to re-establish it. Bob White

I was merely stating the BSA membership policy to Phil, not judging whether or not he met them. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Well Mark let's take a look at what has been acomplished here. >Scout units continue to meet on their regular meeting nights. >The mission, aims, and methods of the BSA remain unchanged. >The membership policies remain unchanged >The inability of the council to alter those policies remains unchanged. >The scouts will have to pay the same user fee as any other youth group, sounds fair to me. Wow, that was some impact! I hope every law-suit is equally as successful. Bob White

"While it may be true that we are "doing this for the boys," if it wasn't fun for us, we wouldn't do it for anyone." I am not sure if I agree with that or not, only because I have no idea what it means. I'm with OGE (surprise), without parents permission (whether they are smokers or not), the money should not have been sent in. Plus, there is still time to recruit another scout. Do not be angry at this scout because of questionable adult administration. It sounds as though the SM was so focused on going himself that he rushed the registration. Bob White

To blame a boy for an adult not being able to participate in a scout event seems sort of backwards doesn't it? I mean who is here for whom? Bob White

Councils have to learn that the only way you will get 100% of the families and units to wait until the start date to sell, then they need to wait to distribute the forms until the start date. As long as the forms are in the hands of the scouts there will be a certain percentage who will start selling early. We are not surprised that there are leaders who don't follow the program, why are we surprised by early sellers? Bob White

"They can have moral fibers and exceed every standard ever set by the BSA and loose it all when they realize they are Gay." Now honestly, they haven't exceeded EVERY standard have they? Because one of the standards is that they not be avowed homosexuals. If the reason so many gay men have scouting backgrounds is due to an effort to overcompensate then they weren't ever really in the program for the right reason to begin with were they? I think most people thing that being gay and being nice are not mutually exclusive, but that is not the issue here. The issue is does being nice over rule all other value traits. Is being nice the sole criteria that scouting loks at to determine an individuals ability to deliver the mission of this particular private program? The volunteers and organizations that determine the membership of the BSA have said no. That there are specific values that either belong or don't belong in our membership. Your son is welcomed by the BSA, and so are you, as long as you choose not to make your sexuality a public issue. But if making your sexuality known is more important to you than being a scout leader for your son you will likely be barred permanently from membership. Bob White

I understand completely FOG. If I were you I would also ignore the current official printed resources in favor of one persons memory of a supposed memo from 9-years ago. But then that's is just one small way that we differ. Bob White

"The G2SS states that 2 adult leaders are required for all campouts." That's not entirely accurate. There are two passages from the G2SS that would be applicable here. The first is Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. The OA activities always have Two adults present and so they are keeping with the policy. But this is not a Troop activity. Unit leaders are no required to attend OA activities. The parents are responsible for determining if the scout should attend without a local leader or parent. Keep in mind if the Scoutmaster did not feel the scout was mature enough to attend an OA activity without a unit leader or parent then he or she should not have approved the scout as an OA candidate. The second passage from the G2SS is Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Notice that patrol activities are not sited as the only instance when Adults are not required, it is just one example. The OA is another situation outside of the normal troop operation where the charter organization is not required to be responsible for insuring two deep leadership. remember the scouts in OA were hopefully chosen for their maturity and camping skills. Hope this helps. Bob White

I received an e-mail from Mike Walton. What he said about a Cub pack wearing the tan shirt was based on what he remembers of a memo circulated from the Cub Division around 1994 to council executives. Because his paperwork is packed in preparation for a move, he has no way to verify the memo. I checked with my council professionals and no one remembers any such memo, or Knows of such an option, or can find a BSA resource offering such an option. but then again it has been nine years. Since there have been numerous uniform publications since that time and NONE suggest such a uniform option, it is likely that Mike misundertood the memo. Bob White

jballa, That knot is still available. It is a white knot on a background of red, white and blue. By the way what year did you eran the award? Bob White