Bob White

Never heard of a Troop First Aider. Do mean only one of your scouts is competent in first aid? Lets take FOG's example that help is two hours away the scout has fallen and broken his leg. you look in his medical file to see what? That he had his tonsils out three years ago? That he is prone to hay fever? That he is allergic to penicillin? Had you planned to administer penicillin to him? Oh wait he had a tetnus shot last year well at least you won't have to give him that on the way th the hospital. Oh look! He has a histoty of bladder infection, and he is nearsighted. HMMM does that mean you use a splint? Thank goodness we had that form handy. You know it is a funny thing that the situations I can show where the privacy can be maintained are real, but the situations you present where you say they cannot be are all fantasized. Bob White

FOG again you abandon honesty for effect. My point has been consistent. An individuals medical information is confidential and a safe scouting program can be delivered without fulfilling your curiosity about an individuals health history. All it takes is communicating with parents and following the safety guidelines. Good leadership makes it possible to respect peoples privacy. Owl's question was on the handling and storage of medical forms, my recommendation is in a sealed envelope until such time as the information is needed by medical professionals. It is courteous, sound and proven advice. Why would you not want to be able to lead a scouting program in a way that protects the scouts privacy and his well being at the same time? What would make these two goals mutually exclusive?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Boyce published the handbook and established the charter with the US Congress. Beard and Seton americanized some of the elements of Baden-Powell's concept, and Seton is largely responsible for the original advancement program especially the creation of the merit badges program. West created the BSA administration structure of the professional service and raised the fundind needed to insure the growth of the organization and its ability to serve more youth. W.D. Boyce is credited as the founder since he brought the handbook here and started Lone Scouts. In the later years he grew annoyed by the scouts requesting funding and participation from him and he basically separated himself from the program. Bob White

Sorry but I don't buy that for one minute. As DSteele our resident scouting professional wiil tell you, if you tell a scout executive that a convicted child abuser is a registered leader his world would stand still until he addressed the issue. Confronting the leader with all other leaders was innappropriate. The decision belongs to the Committee chair and the Charter organization Rep or the head of the organization and it requires that you notify the Scout Executive of the action. Do not go by what anyone has said they have done. If you believe he is in violation of the BSA membership policies or in violation of the Youth Protection policies then YOU need to make direct contact with the Scout Executive. Bob White

Ed I never said the leader could not assume the responsibility but that the BSA neither requires or recommends to do that. If you do then you become soley responsible for any medical prob lems resulting from the improper storage, or deliver of the medication. You said you didn't want to be responsible and now you say you want total liability. Which is it. Ed it says that the scout or his parent/guardian are responsile. In a scouting situation when would a parent be present to take responsibility? when they felt the scout could not. It also states taht where local laws are more restrictive they must be followed. That is because in many staes some of the meds used by scouts are controlled and for you to be in possession of them is illegal. For you to tell a scout when to take which meds is highly dangerous. Especially if you are the type of SM how has to be in charge of everything, it would be easy to become distracted and make an error that could cause Tommy Tenderfoot to keel over at your feet. Fog, that's ridiculous. No one has suggested not rendering or seeking medical attention for a scout. To suggest that is toatally irresponsible on your part. All I have said is to respect the confidentiality of information until it is time to use it and then give it to appropriate medical professionals. Let me ask a question. If you could deliver an adventurous scouting program that was lead so that you didn't need to delve into every scouts personal health information in order for the scouts to be safe and healthy wouldn't that be a good thing? Well it is possible and its done everyday all over the country, why do you not want to have that type of program? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am surprised you can't find it Ed, we have had this conversation before I beleive and I gave you the reference that time as well. But I'm happy to help. Reread the G2SS section on prescription medications. Bob White

If you know that this person has a prior conviction on child abuse go directly to your council's scout executive with the information. Do not discuss the mater with anyone else except perhaps your charter organization representative. If true this man is ineligable to hold membership in the BSA. You cannot control if he chooses to pull his boy from scouting no matter what the reason. Take a look at an adult application and see where the cubmaster signs, he or she doesn't. If don't approve their membership then how can you diasapprove it? Ignore the troop CC this is none of his business. The pack needs to do what is right for the pack. As far as By-laws. Where in the BSA bylaws did you find what a cubmasters authority is. To my knowledge that is not even covered in the by-laws. Pack by-laws are useless if they conflict with the BSA regulations (see committee responsibilities inthe Cub Scout Leader Handbook) and not needed if they simply repeat what is already in the BSA handbooks. Go call you Scout executive! Good Luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I don't want to be responsible if Tommy Tenderfoot didn't take his meds & ends up in a coma." Good for you. You shouldn't be and in fact the BSA agrees and says the same thing, that the responsibility for medications is the responsibility of the scout, and if the scout is not capable then it is the parent/guardian responsibility. The BSA is very specific in the G2ss taht it neither requires or recommends the leader to take this responsibility. In addition, no law requires you or holds you responsible for such responsibility. "I don't know how this jives with the new HIPPA regs" Again, HIPPA has no application to the BSA. In nearly 30 years of troop leadership I have had 3 instances when a scout required professional medical care. None these instances would have been avoided by knowing the contents of the Health History or physicals. All required us to have the medical forms available for the medical professional. None of those doctors would do anthing to the youth until they had spoken to a parent and confirmed all the needed information, including what was on the form. I have no personal experience of a scout ever having a health emergency on an activity that we were not prepared for from information voluntered by the parent, and which never required anyone viewing the health forms on hand. I have only once distibuted meds to a child other than my own (he required pain relievers on a regular basis during a prolonged trip home) and never had a scout ill from overdosing or undermedicating. If I had I would seek ou tprofessional medical services to help him. I do not live in a utopia or bubble. The scouts I have served have had all sorts of medical conditions, All of which the scout was aware of and the parents made me aware of if needed. No parent ever withheld the information from me needed to keep their scout healthy. I do not understand the fascination with feeling you need to know every personal thing about the scout. You need to know how to do your job and what little Mark's personal information is has little or nothing to do with that. I am sorry this seems to ru so many the wrong way. But if you follow the safety guidelines of scouting and actually communicate with parents then the only person that needs those medical forms are medical professionals and even then only on rare occasions. If you have need for constantly accessing these forms then maybe this discussion is not your biggest problem. Bob White

In an effort to be fair and accurate, Ms. Coulter did not denigrate the entire Democratic party, only the cowards and quizzlings residing in it. To be sure there are some of them in every political party. I would think it would be hard not to denigrate cowards and quizzlings wherever you might find them. The fact that the BSA allowed Ann to speak does not establish support for her but only for her right to her opinion. Those present were free to disagree were they not? I'm sure none were told that they must choose an anni-Democratic stand in order to retain membership in the BSA. So Mark if you argument is that the BSA allowed a person to express thier opinion in order for a free thinking audience to make their own decisions without forcing them to choose to follow or support a single political ideology, then I have to say your right and welcome to America. Bob White Bob White

Did I not say that the forms are to be used in case of a medical emergency? At no time did I suggest that the medical forms did not pertain to medical emergencies. As fo emergency phone numbers I would expect that to be on the permission slip for the individual event. Volunteers are responsible for following the safety rules of an activity. Parents are responsible for a childs non-emergency medical treatment according to the G2SS and the BSA. If the parent chose to give Mark a weekend away from his meds and not tell you that to me would be rather irresponible of the parent but not illegal and not mandatory that you be told. If Mark's behavior began to escalate I would hope you would contact the parents with the number they gave you on the permission slip. If his behavior became a safety issue I would expect you to follow the guidelines of the BSA and sent him home with his parents. If his behavior became an emergency medical situation I would expect you to seek professional medical help for Mark and give his confidential health history to professional medical provider. Always be cautious of "I heard about something from someone who said that...."It is often urban legend. No medical provider is required to give confidential information on a minor to a non-parent/guardian. No matter how strong you "feel" you have the right to know everthing about a person, you don't. Nothing in law gives you that right and certainly nothing in scouting. You can get everything you need to know for non-emergency situations simple by asking the parents a few simple questions. Give families the respect they are due by keeping their personal information confidential until a situation arises when it needs to be shared. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Nowhere have I said that the leader should be kept in the dark or that parents did not have a responsibility to share information that might be needed to insure their childrens well being. But a parents responsibilities are different than a parent's or individuals rights. There is no such thing as a scoutleaders right to personal medical information. The things you need to know are only those things that a parent chooses to share. Not everything in a medical form is life threatening but it certainly could be personal, the only reason for the form is for emergency treatment. You want to see it only because you have always looked, but that doesn't make it right. Bob White

So addressing the question without taking shots at other posters is not possible?

Nothing I said was in violation of any BSA policy or guideline. Adult leaders can know the needs and characteristics of a scout without having access to the confidential medical information contained in a personal physical. The BSa has made it clear in the G2SS that a scout and his parents are responsible for medications. that being the case unless a problem arises there is no need to even know what the scout is taking. That is private information unles the scout or his parents choose to release it. There is nothing inthe recomendations or policies of the BSA that require the leader to read the personal medical information until medical aid is required. Whether or not a scout takes Adderall for an ADHD condition is nobody'd business unless the parents choose to share it. Seeing that the scout takes his medication is the parent's responsibility not the scout leader's. If the parent chooses to inform you of his condition so that you can adapt teaching techniques to better serve him is a parent's choice not a mandate. As a leader you might have a curiosity about each scouts personal medical condition but that does not give you a right or priviledge to invade his privacy. All the BSA reqires is that you have current health information on hand. A leader can ask the parents direct questions such as, "is there anything on this health form that I should know about in advance in order to keep Mark healthy?" but if the parent says that there is not, then there is no need anyone to read the form. You can ask the parents if it would be okay for you to read it. But if they say it is only for medical treatment then you really have no authority to invade their privacy. A good example is at Philmont Training center where Faculty used to collect the medical forms. That is now done by a licensed nurse for reasons of confidentiality. 4 scouts of 45 personal info is just that, personal, and it should be treated as such. Bob White This was written, as was my first response, without the need to include any other poster or criticize anyone. I would hope that responses to this post would follow the same example.

You will find the story of how the program began and the role that was played by Baden-Powell, Ernest Thompson Seton, Daniel Carter Beard, W.D. Boyce, and James West in your Boy Scout Handbook. Each had a key role and each brought a unique element to the program. Bob White

I don't know what the actual salary is Eamonn but consider this...he has over one thousand employees and over 6 million customers in a multi-national corporation. An executive in the private sector would be be making a 7 or 8 figure income at the very least. You will not get someone with the managerial skills to do this job for $80,000 a year. Bob White

I have a friend who is diabetic. He has been responsible for his own medication since he was of cub scout age. I have known him for over two years and never new he was diabetic and yet it never had an effect on his condition. Now that I work in the same office with him he told me, and showed me where he keeps his snacks if he has a problem. And yet, I have never seen his personal health history or medical form. I had a scout who was diabetic and took his own insulin, and I knew what to do because his parents gave me the info I needed and yet in five years I never needed to look at his medical form. But I had it with me in a sealed envelope in case I needed it. The bottom line is the question that was first asked was about what security is required, technically, none. That fact that the forms are similar is irrelevant. HIPPA is not about the forms but the transfer of information on the forms. By the way FOG, I fnd your story innane and personally offensive. I have never acted in such a manner and have never seen any leader act in such a manner. I give you a C- in creativity and an F in truth telling. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The BSA and scout units (and similar organizations)are not required to comply with the new HIPAA regulations. That does not mean the information should not be treated with confidentiality by the unit leader. The best thing to do is to follow the recommendation of the BSA and that is to have the current health record or physical on hand (depending on the event) but to make the youth and parent responsible for storage and taking of all prescription medications. That way the medical form can be stored in a sealed envelope unless needed to be accessed for emergency medical treatment by a trained and licensed medical professional. There are those who will argue that the leader needs to know the content of the health form, but that is simply not true. The leader needs to know those health needs for a scout that the parents want to divulge. While I agree the parents have a responsibility to inform the leader of activities and conditions that could negatively affect the scout, they have a right to privacy and confidentiality when it comes to their child's specific health records and conditions. Insist on current information and strongly recommend that parents keep you informed as to activities or conditions that could be harmfull to the scouts health, but stem your curiosity about an individual's private health information until it is required for emergency medical treatment. Bob White

Not only should the BSA be non partisan, that is what the rules of the program state. It is a violation of the BSA uniform policy to wear the uniform in support of a specific political party or candidate. It is unfortunate and in opposition to the scouting ideals for a council to allow such a presentation if at a uniformed event sponsored by the council. I do not feel unique in that I have never asked another scouter what their political leanings are nor has another scouter ever asked me. I use myself as an example because I cannot state for certain what others experiences have been. Statistically I can tell you that when a Republican President is in office the membership in the BSA rises, and unlike at the last Democratic National Convention the Republican Party has never booed a group of Boy Scouts during a flag ceremony after inviting them as guests to their convention. And the only President to ever refuse to speak at the BSA's national Jamboree was Bill Clinton, a Democrat. That being said I would never wear the uniform of the BSA in support of any poilitcal party. So it has not been my experience that the BSA has chosen sides but that the Democratic Party may have. But isn't that what being partisan is all about? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Many of the characters on the show Fog refers to would not be eligible for membership in the BSA. As a scout leader I do not expect them to meet the same standards as I, and others in the scouting program, would expect of them. I agree that insulting remarks about any group is inappropriate behavior. Bob White

OOPS! My son's name is Thomas and my typing fingers (both of them) went into auto-drive. BW

The first paid Chief Scout Executive was James West in 1911. The first President you could say was Ernest Thomas Seton in 1910 although at the time the title was Chief Scout, it was a volunteer position. You can see a list of all the past office holders at the National Scout Museum in Irving, TX. I have not found a list on line yet although one may exist. There is no single national high office for a youth in troop scouting and never has been. That is just not how the program is organized. Hope this helps. Bob White

Laurie I think DSteele, our resident scouting professional, will tell you that it is highly unlikely that a DE would knowingly let a unit operate without a CO, or a unit leader's application get processed without a COR or charter heads signature. The bylaws of the BSA require a unit be sponsored by a Chartering Organization, and that the COR be a member of that organization. Someone is not being totally open with you about the situation. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is a very serious problem for your Cubmaster who has opened him or herself up for being personally liable for the actions of the adult leaders. In addition your memberships could be considered fraudulent meaning that in case of a lawsuit stemming from an injured scout for instance, you might not have liability coverage or legal protection fronm the BSA. Work with your DE to reestablish a relationship with the Chartering organization. The scout unit belongs to them. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Depends on whether you are a professional or volunteer. A volunteer cannot be the Chief Scout executive and a professional scouter cannot be the National president. Each has it's own role and responsibilty. Is it better to be a wheel or an axle. One is useless without the other. The patrol is the most imortant unit in scouting. There is nothing more important (in my opinion) than being a good Patrol Leader. Bob White

Not only for the background check but to insure that the Charter organization rep or Charter head has fullfilled their responsibility to select and approve all adult leaders. just because the leaders of the CO have approved someone as a committee member does not mean that they would approve the same person in a different position such as an ASM. You need a new application when an adult changes responsibility so that the CO can confirn or deny the adults participation in that role. Bob White