Bob White

Mark, I don't think you are able to judge my message fairly due to your bias against my personal views. You missed the part where I said I do not hold this opinion on all democrats only those who participated in the event and those who are the supposed leaders of the event. I have never demonized any one or any group for their belifs. They have a right to express their opinion. I have a right to make judgements bades on their public behavior. HAd any group behaved in the same way I would make the same determination. The scouting program and the boys involved did not care what the ideology of the audience was. They were invited to present the nation's flag, and they came to do so as responsible citizens. It is unfortunate that the party goers did not share that same feeling of responsibility. Bob White

Make that "instituted". Hey it was almost 2 A.M. BW

My apologies OGE upon reredaing your original post and my own I believe I violated your guidelines. Allow me to retract and rephrase. I find the republican ideology likes what I like, A belief in the law and the protection of citizens. A strong military to protect our country and our friends. The repuplican ideology believes in values that I believe in. The republicans belief in protecting those that cannot protect themselves but not those who can but choose not to. The repubilcan ideology believes in a balance between protecting our natural resources and using our resources to benefit the people (as a side note almost all national parks were indtistuted by republican administrations). Republican ideology favors the individual controling his life and not the government. Again, my apologies for the misdirection. BW

I really do not understand why you behave like that FOG. You get thrown off for foul language and dual posting, you are able to return only by lying about your identity, you take numerous personal shots at people especially if they like the scouting program, uniform or handbook, you offer little or no actual input on topics other than to try to create controversy and then you call me names just because you disagree with me. I really don't get it.

I tend to support repulican ideology. I think if you give a person a fish you feed him for a a day, but if you teach him to fish you feed him for a lifetime. I realize that their are people who for one reason or another are for varying periods of time unable to fish. I will gladly share some of my fish with them. I will even encourage others to do the same. But there are an alarming number of people perfectly capabale of fishing who choose not to. I have no interest in giving them my fish. So the demecratic party, rather than buying them fishing poles, taxes me, then takes my money buys fish and gives it to those who refuse to fish, in order to garner votes to keep them in office. My second problem is is that the democratic party does not like things that I like. They don't like Police Officers (two of my brothers are in law enforcement), they don't like scouting, they don't like the rich (by their standards that means anyone who makes over 40,000 and isn't a democrat), and they like the United Nations more than they like the United States. Do not misunderstand I do not dislike a person if they are a democrat, I simply disagree with the ideology of the Democratic Party. They want people to depend on the government, and the want the people who don't depend on the government to take care of them. Bob White

TwoCub, Denial is not a river in Egypt. I watched the event televised live how exactly do you think the image was slanted by the media. The place errupted in boos. The DNC leaders were on the stage and did nothing to regain order or decorum in respect to the flag if not their invited guests. The program continued live and no apology or admonisment took place. Do I expect the leader of an eevent to tell the participants when they are out of line? OF COURSE I DO! That's part of the responsibility that comes with leadership. Wouldn't you correct the behavior of a bunch of adults or youth who misbehaved during a ceremony at a scout meeting or during the presentation of the Flag? I would hope so. The numbers of people shouldn't matter, wrong is wrong. Did they aplogize to the scouts or the BSA. NO. How do I no that? I asked. I have met a number of scouters from the Boy Scout Division at national and I asked. There was no apology. So there are my facts Twocub. What can you offer in their defense? Don't get me wrong these party goers have a right to their opinion about the scouts and the flag. But that gives me the right to form my opinions about them based on their actions. My opinion of the leadership of the DNC and the participants at the convention? Rude, unpatriotic, cowardly. But I'm not in uniform right now so I can say that. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Then consider having them read the portion in the handbook on the history of the program and questioning them on that. BW

Look, let's make this real clear to everyone. I never said this is what you have to do. I even said that the BSA had no policy on it other than on the handling of the medication itself. I said this is what I do, what I recommend, and how I was trained by a person exceedingly well experienced as a physian and a scouter. My experience working with fairly large troops over many years with only three accidents that were totally unrelated to the scouts medical history proves my point. The care for the scout comes from the proper use of scouting methods and good leadership practices. Not from reading confidential medical information. My first response was to answer OWLS questions, and my other responses were in explanation of the method I used and in defense of a few totally unwarranted personal attacks. Take the suggestion or not, use it or not. It makes no difference to me, it is not my privacy that you endanger. Reading personal medical information or storing it in open view is not what keeps the scouts safe, how you lead is what keeps them safe. If having to talk with parents and storing personal information scares you, then perhaps the handling of medical forms is not your biggest problem. Bob White

SPL Your curiosity is commendable but your methodology is in need of improvement. You need to visit the library not an Internet bulletin board. BW

Ed, you are nothing if not entertaining. We should have you spin tall tales at our campfires. You can't possibly believe that could happen. Maybe by some stretch of the imagination the parents didn't tell you, but don't you suppose they told the scout? And who in the world in the middle of an emergency, when someone says they are thirsty, runs and gets milk? That realy is a hoot Ed. ROFLOL Bob White

TwoCub Here are the facts 1 At the DNC's National presidential convention which was televised on network TV the assemly BOO'd the Boy Scout Honor Guard as they presented the Flag of the United States of America. 2 No effort was made to regain decorum 3 No reprimand was given for what was a cowardly and distasteful act not only to the children involved but in respect to our country's flag. 4 No apology was given to the scouts involved, their leaders, or the BSA. Those are the facts. Now, let's hear any evidence, not opinion, to support a belief that this was not an orchestrated demonstration. Bob White

"Do you really think the DNC made a conscious decision to invite the Scouts to the convention just so they could be booed?" YES, that is exactly what I think. If you had watch the event you would think so to. There was no effort made by party or convention leaders to stop it, there was no admonishment of the conventioneers for their disgusting behaviour, there was no apology given the Scouts in attendance or to the BSA. I absolutely believe this was a politically motivated ambush of children in order to endear the party to a social minority. Bob White

Beaver, This twice elected popular president you speak of that an opposing party tried to overthrow...are you talking about Reagan or the guy who was having illicit sex in the Oval Office with an intern? If you are looking for saints, quit looking at politics, that's not where they hang out. Everything you condemn the republicans of you can find an identical incident in the demoratic party. 0r do you not believe that there has ever been a disgruntled democrat? I do want to point out that hundreds of elections are recouted each year and that the recall in California was done legally, and judging by the say of the voters, was warranted. Democrats have endorsed recall votes as well, this is just the first time for a Govenor. So be careful throwing stones in the glass house of politics. Some how I do not equate a legal recall with ambushing children. But that's just me. Bob White

Eisley, Thank you for addressing this calmy and politely. There are just a few things I would like to respond to. I never said that the forms should not be stored in a central file where they can be accessed easily when needed. I agree that the Leader needs to know the needs of the scout, but only those things that the parents feel is needed for you to know. You might not read the forms out of curiosity but there are some who would, both youth and adult. You have a responsibility to take evry measure to protect that information. An open file hardly meets that responsibility. If your goal is to know the needs of the scout you can do that by talking to the parents. If you are only going to use the forms as they are intended then why is keeping them in individual envelopes a problem? Bob White

Again Twocub, at no time have I said that the leader should not know the neeeds of the scout, only that there is no need or right to all the information in a medidcal history or physical. And, that the families have a right to confidentiality with that information. Look again, the paragraph I shared follows the High Adventure paragraph but refers to ALL scout activities, not just high adventure. Bob White

Just for the record just because CJ agreed with me does not mean we are in agreement. I see no reason that conservative or liberals, Republicans or Democrats, white collar worker or blue collar workers cannot share the values of scouting. Bob White

Not quite. This is going to be tough to explain in a bulletin board SPL you need to go to the library to get the entire story it is quite complicated. By the way did you read the handbook yet? Boyce did not invent scouting, Robert Baden-Powell did. Boyce was a publisher from Chicago, Il. who went to London to meet with Powell and secure the publishing rights for Powell's book Scouting for Boys. He then worked with Beard and Seton to create another book (remember this is the 2nd largest publisher of his time) for what he called Lone Scouts. No, Seton was the only Chief Scout. He directed the program as a volunteer for one year, after which he was instrumental in hiring West as the first Chief Scout Executive. West created the councils and professional scouting to raise funds, recruit volunteers and start units. But there are books written about and by all these men that will answer your questions more accurately and with greater flair. Happy reading, Bob white(This message has been edited by Bob White)

OWL, Here is what the Guide to safe scouting says is the reason for having health forms. "It is recommended that unit leaders have a complete medical history and permission slip for every participant attending each Scouting activity. The medical history form and permission slip, in most cases, will allow emergency medical treatment to a youth member in case of injury or illness when a parent or guardian cannot be contacted" Nowhere that I know of does the BSA have an official policy on handling the forms. My training came from a physician who was the head of the Emergency Medical Services at a large midwest hospital. He is an Eagle Scout, Asst. Scoutmaster, Medical Director of the council's summer camp and, was a member of the council executive committee. So the suggestion I gave you has some pretty strong authority behind it. I would bet that for many leaders what they do in this matter comes from past habits that were never challenged before. Best of luck, Bob White

Most likely yes, but that is just conjecture as would any other opinion that follows. The matter would be in the hands of your Scout Executive, and he or she would treat it with confidentiality.

Now Ed think about this fairy tell you are offering us. You want us to believe that the scout is unaware that he cannot drink milk? Or you want us to believe that a parent would not tell you that the scout cannot have milk products if you were to ask them if there were any health conditions you should be aware of? Or that you read each medical form prior to meals for each scout? Cause you know Ed, once the scout has the milk, you reading the medical sheet will not change or improve his condition. By the way Ed you never asked where I learned this "unusual" practice. Bob White

So Fog are you saying that the end doesn't justify the means? Or just not in this situation? BW

In the case of the physical forms for high adventure as well as summer camp, those forms are given to licensed medical professionals who have been trained to understand the information on those forms. Camps keep those forms in secured areas with restricted access, not just lying around in a three ring notebook. After that they are not used unless...there is a medical need. Justas they should be secure and confidential in a unit situation and not viewed until..there is a medical need. Ed, As I explained you can simply talk with the parent to get non-confidential information that you might need to create a healthy envirnment for the scout. Milk for a broken leg? Where in creation did you get your first aid training. And you mean to tell us that a boy scout doesn't know if he is lactose intolerant? Do you really expect him to request milk? Really Ed! Bob White

You can easily review the form with each parent without needing to see every entry. There are only certain fields on that form that affect your ability to provide a safe and healthy environment for the scout. You can simply ask the parents aif there is information in that area that feel needs to shared with you. If they say there isn't then there isn't. I'm not saying a parent cannot give you permission to look at personl health informataion. I'm saying they are not required to and you and others are not free to look. Many units keep the information in a notebook where nearly any curiosity seeker can look. That's a bad idea. Many leaders still hold and distribute meds, A horrible idea. Many feel they have a "right" to a childs personal information. Just shy of an ego trip. We have the responsibility to lead good programs and create environments where scouts can reasonably be safe. Medical forms are for emergencies and until that emergency happens there is no good reson why that information cannot be surpressed from view. Ask the parents if the scout has any health conditions that you need to be aware of in order to keep him safe and healthy during an adventurous outdoor program. Tell them if the scout is taking meds that he or a parent/guardian are responsible for storage and administration of the nmedication, and to let you know if this is a problem. Tell them you need a complete and current health history and review the form with them when you give it to them. Tell them that this information will be kept confidential unless required for emergency medical attention. When you collect the form ask them again if there are any restrictions or medical needs you need to be aware of. If they say no then take the envelop and put in in the emergency file. There is no need for you to read it, you just reviewed it. If it makes you feel beter to ask them if you can read it go ahead and ask. Just be aware the parent is within their rights to say "no". Bob White

Welcome to the 'discusion' Be_Prepared, you build a pretty intricate watch yourself. I would like to ask about the last point you made. Do you really know of a situation where having a signed consent form for emergency treatment meant anything. Having discused with with a number of physicians from different states they all have said the same thing. If it is an emergency amd the patients life or limb is at stake the physician is required to give aid. If the patients life or limb is not at stake the physician will take no action until he or she has spoken to a parent or legal guardian with or without a signed release. I have to say that my few occasions to make use of profession aid while scouting has proven this out 100% of the time. Why is this release so common? I can only guess that releases are written by lawyers and they do what they are taught to do, and medical care is given by physicians and they do what they are taught to do. Bob White (Maker of fine watches for over 40 years)

You only have ONE adult trained in first aid?