Bob White

Barry, Who recommended that the Scoutmaster assign ANY position of responsibility?

They probably did not drop WLOT they inadvertently threw out the syllabus when the new Cub Training was realeased. WLOT was in the back section before. It is now a stand alone syllabus and a new program released within the last two months. The course now takes place parrallel to Intro to Outdoor Skills, with some of the classes shared by troop leaders and Webelos Leaders. Have the Training committee get the new Council Trainng Manual and look it up. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Some very good points SM406. Just for historical accuracy scout patrols existed before scout troops, The egg had existed for millions of years before the chicken. Bob White

Check again sst3rd.

So? Who said that it was?

The belief that outdoor training has been removed is ridiculous and fear mongering in this case. Beaver is absolutely correct in all his information on the availability of outdoor training. This is really a non-issue. Bob White

If your local scout shop does not carry scout pants it has nothing to do with national not making them availabl. They are just as available as the pieces the shop does carry. Your problem is with the scout shop not national supply. If your scout shop ordered pants for stock you would have them. So why doesn't your store stock them? probably because like any store it is expensive to stock a product that isn't selling. If more scouts and scouters in your area wore a complete uniform it would be stocked in the store. Then again if the store had the pants perhaps more scouts and scouters would buy them. either way the problem is not national supply or the pants (hundreds of thousands of members wear the pants) It is in the attitudes of the local volunteers and the local scout shop administration. Bob White

Adult and youth must focus on the formation, function, maintenance, and activities of the Patrol. The PLC should concern itself with the cooperation of Patrols as a Troop. The scoutmaster should teach them how. Bob White

Youth leadership is a vital method of scouting. It could not exist without the patrol method. If youth were not in the top leadership position in the patrol then a youth could not lead the troop as SPL. Imagine a trop with adult patrol leaders but a youth Scoutmaster. It just couldn't work. That's why I cringe when troops have an adult assigned to help "coach" each patrol. I have never seen this work. The adult inevitably ends up running the program whether they intend to or not. Count up how many leadership opportunities would be possible if it was just one large group and no smaller groups. Not too many. The patrol method, with a recommended 6-8 members allows every scout to have a specific responsibility in helping the unit succfeed whether in a troop or patrol office. Keep in mind that a troop is not divided into patrols. (that is one of the most common mistakes scout leaders make), patrols gather to form a troop. it is a very important distinction. Remember that Den Chief is not really a pack leadership position. It is a troop leadership position. The Den chief is there to assist the adult den leaders, to set a good youth example for the cub scouts, and to represent his troop. Hope this helps, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn, i may post later. In the mean time I have private messaged you with my take on this string. I may post later after I see how a few others feel.

Adrianvs, please understand there is NO POLICY on this matter. So I was not using either method of discourse that you put forward. Are those really the only two options? None of the methods of scouting are policy. They are actions that form the identifying structure of a scouting program. The patrol method is, in the opinion of many, the core method. it is the sphere within which all other methods are occupants. It is thought by some to be merely breaking a troop into small groups. In fact that is not even an element of the Patrol Method. The core of the patrol method is in the the understanding of the social needs and characteristic of boys of scout age. Some think the Patrol method centers around youth leadership. Actually leadership is its own separate method. What the Patrol Method does is act as the vehicle for the leadership method. Without patrols there would be only a handful of offices available within a troop for scouts to learn and practice leadership and organizational skills. To ignore this element makes the need for patrols largely uneeded. Without the use of the patrol method it is not scouting, it's just doing stuff in a scout uniform. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

With all respect Adrianvs, and I do appreciate the attempt to clearify my posts, what you have written is not correct. All positions are refered to as positions of responsibility in the scout resouces as far as I know. Usually they are refered to simply as positions. A Patrol Leader has a position in the patrol just as a Patrol Scribe does. They have different responsibilities but they both hold patrol positions. The Patrol Method is just one method of achieving the aims and mission of the BSA, NONE of the methods are controlled by "policies". They are the course of action that distinguish between delivering a scouting program or just doing stuff in a Boy Scout uniform. Baden-Powell wrote that the Patrol Method is not one way to operate a troop..It is the ONLY way. Having every scout share in the responsibilty of administering the patrol or troop is one element of the patrol method and has been taught in basic level scout leader training for decades. I have already listed several positive things gained from the use of this practice and so far only Dan has verbalized the drawbacks. In a finely tuned satirical voice I might add. Do not be so hasty to refer to positions as Grubmaster and Cheer master as "unofficial". "Under used" is a far more accurate term. Since they appear in the Handbooks of Boy Scouting with job desciptions, I would say they are indeed official. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

sst3rd, Did you get my private message? Do you see the difference in attitude and approach? Bob White

Dan, Good one! Bob

Okay now that my spleen is thorougky vented lets get back to talk about scouting. I have listed some of the advantages of every scout holding a specific responsibility within the troop or patrol. To recap, they include;improves skills, develops teamwork, improves attendance, teaches citizenship, raises self-esteem, and is in keeping with the mission of scouting. Mark has presented a very effective way to administer this in a new scout patrol. My questions are "what negatives are there to using this element of the patrol method in a troop of any size?" and "do you feel the negatives outweigh the advantages and how?" Bob White

So you did not say special friend before as you had stated, and I did not say I would be gone forever as you had stated. So you did lie about both. You have no right to judge anyone's fullfillment of the Oath or Law after lying about your identity, when you re-joined. I did say that I would quit feeding you though and I have fallen back into that trap. So FOG, Yaworski, Zorn, whatever name you want to use this time I leave you to your angry world of a program you do not like, a handbook you do not like, in a uniform you do not like, working with parents you do not like. You offer your version of the program and I will post my understanding of it. The readers can decide for themselves what they feel is in keeping with the Scouting program. Ed, don't even bother tossing in your two cents on this. Bob White

Well FOG it appears to be "put up or shut up' time. A search of the the last year of your posts using this sights search tool does not turn up any other use of the term "special friend" in any of your posts other than the last two days. Nor have I ever said I was leaving and never returning. So where are these two posts you refer to? The lies you spread need to stop, this is not an appropriate venue to display that type of character trait. Bob White

I'll tell you what I told Ed, if you cannot ask nicely than you don't get an answer. I am not obligated to cooperate with anyone who lies about me and insults me. You should know what the manuals are, take some time out to learn the program. If self-study does not suit you consider attending some training. By the way I'm not sure who you mean by my "special friend", but if you feel you have grounds to complain about my behaviour then take it to whomever you wish with this forum and plead your case. Just be sure to tell the truth when you do. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

How to put this nicely, ....FOG, what you wrote was a conscious decision to abstain from the truth. The scouting program is designed and intended to allow every scout to have a share of the leadership responsibility within the patrol or troop. Such responsibilities improves skills, develops teamwork, improves attendance, teaches citizenship, raises self-esteem, and is in keeping with the mission of scouting. Why would you only allow some scouts those benefits and not all?

There is a story about a man out working in his yard when a stranger walked up and said, "I'm thinking about moving into this neighborhood, what are the people like around here?" to which the man replied, "what are they like where you live now?. "Oh", said the stranger "they're a great bunch, very freindly and always looking out for each other, the children are all friends and we really enjoy ouselves". "Well, said the man, I think you will find the folks hereto be the same". The next day the man was back working in his yard when another stranger walked up. "Excuse me, he said, I'm thinking about moving into this neighborhood and was wondering what the people were like?" Again the man asked "What were they like in your old neighborhood? "Oh a horrible group" said the stranger. No one spoke to each other, why I never even met the guy across the street. The kids are loud and no one gets along." "too bad" said the man, "I think you will find the folks here are just the same." Your world is what you make it. Bob White Hmmmmm I don't know what made me think of that old story.

Who said "needs a position of responsibility"? Who said "force"? Who comes into a troop qualified? I am glad you have attended training. I have no control over what was said or what you heard. I only know how the program works. Bob White

Thanks sst3rd Bob

i would think that if you worked with the Troop Scribe to keep advancement records updated by use of the troop advancement chart. The scribe could work with the scouts to transfer advancement from their books to the chart and then you could take info from the chart to your records. You could also work with the scribe to publicize Board of Review dates. The scribe could also get advancemnt news from you to place in the troop newsletter. In a ddition you could work with the librarian to keep him informed and supplied with current merit badge books and other advancement materials. When new topics are requested he could go through you to get them purchased by the committee. Hope this helps, Bob White

You know what Ed, for someone who wants to be spoon fed a program that he says he knows, you do not ask very nicely. So feel free to read the handbooks yourself and ask your local training chairman when the next Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training is. I do not participate here just to reteach you a program you do not wish to learn. So I will focus on helping the leaders who want to present a quality scouting program to do so. I politely deny your request. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Where to start... There have been a lot of comments about Young eagles not being able to do basic scout skills, consider these points. 1)If the learning hasn't learned then the teacher hasn't taught. When scouts of any rank cannot do the skills that were required to get to that rank adult leaders have no one to point the finger of blame at then themselves. We are ther to make sure the program is adminitered effectively, not the boys. 2) Who on this board remembers everything they have ever learned if they do not practice it or put it to practical use from time to time. Next there is the notion of scout leaders as babysitters. No one has the power to make you behave as a babysitter but you. If you don't want to be a babysitter then don't behave as one. It really is just that easy. The thought of making Eagle tougher intrigues me. The most scouts that have ever reached Eagle is just under 5% of the total rergistered Boy Scouts. How much tougher does it need to be? I am amazed that with all the people that have been named as 'should be reponsible for maintaining higher standards' no one is mentioning the most responsible person of all, the Chartered Organization Representative. A COR how takes the responsibility of selecting and approving Scoutmasters seriously can have the greatest effect on the quality of advancement than anyone else. "Summer camp is to go up there and take and do things you wouldn't normally do." I'm not sure there is anything in the program that supports this notion. I think about the things at our local council camp; fishing, swimming, rock climbing, archery, rifle/shotgun, boating, hiking, campiong, merit badge opportunities etc. There is not a single thing there that a scout cannot do within a 30-minute drive of there home elsewhere. The purpose of summercamp is to enjoy a fun week outdoors in a scouting environment where the boys can learn, socialize and grow mentally physically and emotionally with other scouts. Isn't it? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)