Bob White

So Fog, what specific instructions would you give a Patrol Leader to help him get the job done and keep the group together. Perhaps the BSA program has been lured down a worthless path. Share with us your methods for successful leadership. Up to this point you have only offered imagined scenarios and criticism. Here is an opportunity for you to post your insights. Bob white

Ed, you post as if the BSA has never altered the uniform in response to the volunteers and that is an inaccurate picture and you know it. The uniform pants have changed several times in just the last 10 years. Do you honestly think that they will never change again. The uniform has been in a constant state of change for over 90-years. I think the majority of scouters are like Eamonn when it comes to the uniform. We do not wear it for style or function or even comfort. We wear it as a symbol of who we are and the program we believe in. Most of the times when you are in uniform it is only for a couple of hours. Given time we will probably see an entirly new uniform and then a million or so of you can find something new to complain about. Because Ed when you deal in numbers this large you can never please everyone. Bob White

The text book skills are not for the boys Ed, They are for you, YOU are supposed to teach them how to make them work. If a boy has poor skills Ed that speaks more about a problem with the scoutmaster's leadership not the scout's, and not the boys he leads. The buck stops with you as the scoutmaster. Do you really not understand that? Bob White

MK9750 That's great! Captain, You have very good points, I have just never seen a unit be able to sustain that behavior for any meaningful length of time. In addition the Scoutmaster gets bogged down with evaluating and training adults to the exclusion of evaluating and training scouts. FOG If the SM followed the program in setting up the patrol of friends wanting to be together, and they were allowed to choose their own leader and a good leadership example was set, the situation you describe would not happen. The patrol you use as an example only exists because of adults who did't follow the program. "Hmmm. . . in my little world, it was the captain's job to tell people where to play, it wasn't a committe decision" What a shame. In my big world friends worked together. I guess that explains the vast differences in our approaches. I had friends and scout leaders who respected me and I them. Sorry you missed out on that. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you wish Ed, If we can agree that all leadership gets a reponse, and that a positive reponse is better than a negative reponse, then can we agree that good leadership skills are more likely to get a positive reponse than poor leadership? Still with me Ed? If so, then the logical argument is that a negative response is mostly likey due to poor leadership. Since the scoutmaster is responsible for leadership development, it leads us to... If the patrol is not cooperating it is most likely do to a poor method of leadership and that is the reponsiblity of the PL and SM not the patrol. Now unless you are prepared to argue that this is not the SM responsibility or that poor leadership more often achieves positive response, or that good leadership skills more often achieve a negative response (none of which have any logical basis), then you really have no grounds to disagree with me do you? As far as your second statement"And saying won't follow & can't follow are not the same." I do not see the relevance since I never said they were.

Great Ed! thats a good choice. Now would you agree that a positive response is better than a negative one?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

KS the conversation grew from the premise that the patrol method is that sphere within which all other methods function. for the Patrol Method to work, leadership development must take place, and adults simply telling scouts what to do does not develop leadership, and scouts telling others what to do is not displaying leadership. To simply blame the followers as a couple posters hav chosen to do, ignores the resonsibility of leaders to lead properly and the scoutmasters role as primary trainer. You cannot effectively reach the aims of scouting without using the methods of scouting. And without the use of good leadership skills you cannot manage the other methods. Should a ASM whisper into the ear of a scout? Depends on the scout and what he is whispering I would think. If he is telling a patrol member that "it's time to do the dishes", then no, I think that is out of line. If it is directed quietly to the PL "what time did you schedule your meal prep to start?" then I think thats fine. You shouldn't telling a scout what to do, but subtly reminding a leader to check and follow the agenda develops a skill. I am not saying that patrol coaches don't work just that I have never seen a situation where they did. The scout ends up relying on the adult to make the decision, or the adult takes over. I have never seen an observant Scoutmaster and assistants who use the program methods have to hover in order for a patrol to suceed regardless of age. Bob White

I am saddened by the number of leades who would rebuke this young man for leaving and then returning. Especially since sst3rd said that he was as good scout. Has no one heard the parable of the Prodigal Son? Is there no lesson for us as leaders in that story? Didn't any of us return to scouting after a time away either as scouts or as adults. If a scoutmaster of nearly 12-yeARS said he or she was burned out, and they took some time off to rethink their priorities and then chose to return to scouting, would you really turn them away with the haste you are showing this scout? Any boy willing to live by the Oath and Law should be welcomed back to a unit as the father welcomed his errant son. I would kill the fatted calf for him any time. I stand with Eamonn on this and hope others will reconsider the position they have taken. Bob White

Hi Anne,And what if they don't respond to any type of leadership goof or bad? You raise some good points and I think the resonse may surprise you. BUT FIRST let's give Ed something to think about. Ed wrote "And what if they don't respond to any type of leadership good or bad? Then Ed wrote "Leadership gets a response whether it is good, bad or just so-so. Ed, argue this out with yourself and when you decide which statement you actually support get back to me. OK Anne lets get scouting. "How do we motivate adults to sit on their hands, so to speak?". We don't, thats not what a good leader does. Good leadership s not about not getting involved. it is about know when to and when not to and how depply you get involved. Good ledership requires among other things understanding the group, knowing the goals of the task, evaluation skills, and respecting the abilities of those you lead. How do we do it? Through support and understanding of the resources and methods of the scouting program. Having leaders who are selected carefully by the CO is the first step. COs need to be diligent about their responsibility to see that the adult leaders follow the program. any adult that doesn't want to lead a scout unit according to the scout methods should be replaced. NEVER judge the quality of a scouting program by the number of contests won, merit badges earned or Eagle awards present. Those are contests of adult egos not displays of good scouting. Good scouting and bad scouting can happen at any level. It all depends on the quality of the leadership skills. That is why training and returning to training is so important. We are not an outdoor adventure club. Scouting is a method of education. Adventure is a tool not a purpose. A good scout unit is one where the activities get the boys to attend, so that subtle personal growth can be affected. In a good scouting (one where the scouting program is used) certain traits will be present. Scouts and adults show respect for each other, parents and leaders have fun together, regular service projects are performed in the community. All scouts achieve First Class Rank. A mojority of kids stay in the program until they age out regardles of rank. The scouts and scouters exhibit positive hararacter traits. Boys go to other youth leaders for answers first. Youth leaders ask adults "How could I have helped this go better?" How can this be accomplished? Read and practice the information in the Scout and Scoutmaster Handooks. Lead more by asking questions than by giving commands. When a scout asks how to do something try answers like "what ways have you considered" or "let's look at our options and you pick one" or "lets look in the handbook together and see what it says". Why would roundtable promote this? Remember that we have over a million volunteers that come from differnt backgrounds, education, work experiences. for some the leadership styles of the BSA are new. Some will embrace them and some won't, be wary of those who won't. Anyone can learn the skills of being a good scoutmaster, all it takes is to make the choice to want to be a scout leader and not just boss people around in a scout uniform. Training and practicing the methods is the answer. Bob White

If there was no response to any type of leadership I would begin CPR. Face it Ed, there is no such thing as good leadership that doesn't get a response. After all that is how you know it's good, isn't it? Bob White

Ah, so they have changed. And is this the first change the BSA has ever made in the pants since you have been in the program Ed?

Ah, so they have changed. And is this the first change the BSA has ever made in the pants since you have been in the program Ed?

Ed, how many years have you been in scouting. Are the pants you are wearing now the same style, structure, and material the they have always been, or have they changed from time to time? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

IF the scoutmaster allowed the scouts to choose their own patrols as the program methods direct, and IF the scoutmaster allowed the patrol to elect their own leadership as the program methods direct, and IF the scoutmaster followed the program in orienting the scouts to their new position as the program directs, IF the scoutmaster teaches the Patrol leaders the scouting leadership techniques, then patrol members will respond positively. The key to patrol performance is having a scoutmaster that follows the program methods of scouting. To blame kids for not reponding to poor leadership skills is a cop out, and an abdication of responsibility by the scoutmaster. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed when you have a cusomer base that large you have to understand you will never please everyone. So you do the best you can to please the largest customer base as possible.

To say you are selective is an understatement. First, on page 8 of the patrol Leaders Handbook it says under the heading What is expected of me "Solicit ideas and concerns from patrol members so they have input to the planning and operations of the patrol." To say that a Duty roster is needed does not imply that it is done without the input of the patrol. Page 64 does say that "Drawing up a duty roster is a good way to figure out what needs to be done." (see how the meaning changes when you post the entire sentence?) The manual is simply giving the PL a tip on how to get organized for a campout. In the following line it says, "By writing down who will take care of each task you can make sure that every patrol member has a chance to share in the effort." This is telling the PL the advantages of a written plan. If you were to read page the preceding page, it says "You, the Patrol Leader, are in charge,but a patrol meeting should never be a one man show. every member of the patrol needs to be involved in some way." Making assignments and organizing is not mutually exclusive to getting patrol member input. So no, the Patrol Leader Handbook does not disagree with me, I agree with it. "Something that you are ignoring is the fact that for a leader to succeed, the leadees need to be willing to be led." What a huge dodging of responsibility that is. The goal of leadership is to gain the cooperation of others to complete a task. To say "they won't follow" is the same as "I cannot lead". And who is responsible for teaching the skills of leadership to the boys. THE SCOUTMASTER. the inability of boys to learn leadership skills is the failure of the SM to teach them, not a failure of boys who respond negatively to ineffective leadership styles and skills. The old guy in kahiki doesn't know how to lead, and gave poor instructions to the patrol. "Every Scout knows that someone needs to do the dishes and that someone needs check the fire buckets." Most probaly do. So a good leader will say to them "Everybody knows that someone needs to do the dishes and that someone needs check the fire buckets, who would like to do that for Staurday's breakfast. We will all take turns." Then the PL or the patrol scribe writes down on the Duty roster who has agreed to do what, and when. Good leadership is planning ahead and respecting the team memebrs and their abilities. Not playing "king of the hill". In the sandlot example when the two team captains get together that is a PLC. If when you were little you chose a captain who bossed everyone around then you should have picked a different captain. Bob White

I'm with Eamonn. here are a few tips I find helpfull. Turn the lights off or way down. have the scouts sit down on the floor. i like to have a single candle for them to focus on and to st a quiet mood. take your time talking. Impostant thoughts should not be rushed. Make it a personal story about you if possible. props can help them remember the story. Practice before you do it. Hope this helps, Bob White

91 merit badges?! I have to say, I am impressed. What a great personal effort. Hats off to you le Voyageur. Bob White

So Bob, having 1.2 million dissatisfied customers is okay? Does that work in your business? It hasn't hurt Microsft! "Let's see ... the pants are about $40 bucks. That's $48 million in revenues and even at miminal margins, we're talking $5 million net.' Actually it's more like $1,600,000.00 net. Most clothes have a 50% GP margin so the actual gross net is about $24 million assuming the that all 1,200,000 bought their pants in the same year, VERY unlikely. Anyway at the very best a business usually only nets 7% of gross profit. So that brings us to $1,600,000.00 or about $1.33 per pair of slacks. Not what you would call a big money maker, and thats at the maximum expected return. Bob White

"He also told me that his app. was run normally because he was in the system from several years earlier." I believe DSteele will back me up on this. Not a chance in Aunt Gerty's garters!!! No matter how long ago you might have been registered all new applications are run through the new criminal background screening..ALL of them. The council professionals have no say in the matter...period. As far as who will be responsible. The Chartered Organization will be. They have the ONLY say in approval of adult leaders. The BSA registers them upon approval of the chartering organization and upon meeting the qualifications attested to on the application. It is the Charter organizations responsibility to verify that information and to investigate references. Bob White

Get the slings and arrows ready cause some of you are not gonna like this. I don't understand the reason for needing Patrol Dads, Coaches, whatever you want to call them. The job of training patrol leaders belongs to the Scoutmaster. The job of evaluating the leadership abilities of the leadership and helping them to develop is...the Scoutmasters. Another person who is there to help leaders succeed is the Senior Patrol Leader. Im sorry but if you have Patrol Dads (or moms) and everything is running smoothly then you are not letting boys lead. Scouting doesnt run smoothly. I is not meant to run smoothly. It is a training ground for boys and they need to make their own errors so that they can say That didnt work so well. How could that have been done better? "Here's a classic: on a campout last spring, the PL had set up a duty roster. Well, the other guys didn't like being told that they had to do stuff and yelled at him, "You're not in charge!" That led to a sitting time with an old guy in khaki explaining how they elected him to make decisions and assign jobs." This is a classic but it is not an example of boys being unable to lead. This is an example of adults unable to train and develop leadership skills in boys. It was the Scoutmaster who failed here, not the boys. It is the scoutmasters responsibility to teach them the skills of leadership. The old guy in khaki (explaining how the patrol elected him to make decisions and assign jobs) doesn't know how to lead and he doesnt understand the role of a patrol leader. Dont tell me how much training he has had or how long he has done this, that just makes it all the sadder. The patrol leader is elected to represent the needs of his patrol to the Patrol Leaders Council, and to represent the needs of the troop back to the patrol. He is selected by the patrol to help them coordinate and cooperate as a team, not to hand out assignments like the dictatorial leader whose example he is mimicking. Even outside of scouting, a small group of boys will naturally select a leader from amongst themselves and they will cooperate to organize a task. Think of when you and your friends organized a game of sandlot baseball. There were no adults there. You picked teams, set bases and foul lines, determined positions, all as a cooperative team. All it takes is an adult to screw things up. One adult tells one boy that now youre in charge you have to tell the other guys what to do. Who wants to be treated that way by a peer, let alone by anyone? The more adults involved in patrol operations the worse they operate. If adults want to run patrols they should start a different organization and go play. If leaders think that leading is telling people what to do they should consider attending leadership training and pay closer attention or buy a dog and command it around to their hearts delight. If you were standing in front of me I would ask you questions that would allow you to discover this on your own but a bulletin board does not lend itself to that kind of conversation. Bob White

Help me out Laura7 You wrote "If the BSA REALLY wants scouts and scouters to wear the WHOLE uniform - maybe they should take a look at WHO is wearing it? and make it fit better and more available?" Then you wrote"I never said I thought National didn't make them available....." You said more available, and it is as available as any other uniform piece providing your local scout shop orders it. As far as making them to fit better..fit who better. We have over 6 million people in uniform. If the uniform fit 8 out of 10 people just fine (I do not know any cut of clothing that does), there would still be over 1,200,000 scouts and scouters complaining about the uniform. It's an impossible fight to win. As far as making the field uniform suitable for its intended use, I think you need to revisit the handbook and see what the intended use is. For formal occasions, meetings and public appearances the field uniform works fine. If you are using it for outdoor activities you are in the wrong uniform. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Out of curiosity le Voyageur is that four silvers and a gold, or four silvers and a bronze. Wonderful effort by the way. Kudos, Bob White

Yes, It is called "Units of Scouting", it is a series of short sessions that include,Youth Protection, Unit Budget Planning, Unit Program Planning, Troop Organization and about 5 other topics. I don't have the list in front of me, but it is in the Council Training Committee Manual. Bob White

That is not the fault of the uniform, it's the butcher who stuffed the sausage. Bob