Bob White

Based on how few "trained" leaders seem to know about or use patrol activities,(in spite of all the places in the program it is talked about) perhaps it is not the scouts who need the recognition for this one? Maybe we need a a special scoutmasters patch to identify the scoutleaders that know and implement this program element?

While some unit somewhere might have scouts do a BoR every 6 months, and while it might be a personal "ideal" of the poster who stated that, it is not an ideal of the BSA's nor is it suggested or supported by any element of the BSA's Boy Scout program. What the BSA says is that you do not have to wait until a scout is ready to advance before you do a BoR, and it suggests that you hold a BoR for scouts who do not show ANY progress toward advancement during a period of a few months. So you could save yourself a lot of concern over this by ignoring the posters personal "ideal" and instead simply follow the BSa's recommended process. The recommended process is to do BoRs as Scouts are ready to advance, and for scouts who show no signe of advancement for a few months.

I guess as far as people who have been in the program knowiung a lot about the program, you will learn from forums such as this and from your own experiences that often that is not the case. But let me ask you something Dean. What do you think would be the sadder condition...someone who has been in the program who has continued to learn, or someone who has been in the program for a long time who refuses to learn or never learned? Wouldn't you expect people who participated in any program for a long time would gain more knowledge as they gained experience? It would not be surprising to me if a person who spent a decade or more as a leader would and should have more knowledge than a person who has been in for less than a few years. I am far more concerned when that isn't true then when it is. Are there right and wrong ways to do things in the BSA? Yes, of course there are. Just as they are right and wrong ways to do nearly anything. Is there a right or wrong way to do everything? No of course not, and I have never met any scouter who thought that there was.

"I'm sure they want to get feedback from more folks in the council." Precisely my point, they want feedback from the members INSIDE the council. The people outside the Cradle of Liberty have their own Counil corporation and their own community Scouting program. They have no business interferring with another council's business.

Jet actual look at the tour permit and you will see that their is very little that does not relate to adults and adult criteria and adult responsibilities. It is not a form designed to use with a patrol outing. When the permit asks for "unit" it is asking for Den, Pack, Troop, Crew, or Ship. The section on speed and mileage is not applicable since scouts cannot drive on a patrol outing. The section on Youth Protection training is not applicable since no adults are going. The section on adult leader in charge is not applicable since there will not be an adult in charge. The section on the Assistant adult in charge is not applicable since no adult is going. The goup leader for the permit refers to the first sections adult leader but there is none. Only the questions in box 3 and 4 can be answered. The balance of the form refers to adult certification for various training BUT THERE ARE NO ADULTS GOING. And the drivers insurance coverage...BUT THERE ARE NO ADULTS GOING, and the scouts cannot drive for a patrol outing. You might as well fill out a Unit Money Earning Application because it doesn't have anything to do with a Patrol activity either. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

While preservationists have been successful in stopping owners from altering a structure or force them to retain the archetectural style of a structure, or the natural resources of a property, I would challenge John in KC to provide evidence of a case where a a court action refused to let a private organiazation sell their own property. If some folks want to try to force the new owner into a specifc land usage they could certainly try. But I would venture that even John cannot deny that the council has every right to sell their property. Bottom line, this property is not owned by the local units or the local scouters, or even well intentioned or sentimental scouters anywhere. It is owned by a private corporation and it is their property to keep or sell as they choose.

While the Scouts are covered with the accident insurance if the unit has purchased it or if it is provided by the council. No unit leader's individual liability would be involved as no unit leader is there. Lets use a little common sense here. You cannot be responsible for damage or injury that occurred when you were not involved or even present. Patrol activities are unique elents of scouting and do not follow the same conditions as troop activities..

Ursus, get the chip off your shoulder and try to understand what I am trying to explain here.. "Once again, thank you kindly for the lecture about what you havent done yourself, or what you did as a kid " As I explained I have done this myself as a youth and as an adult leader for many years, I do not understand your repeated refusal of that fact. "And in all the sections you cite, they DO NOT address specifically what is expected of a SM and the troop leadership when a patrol wishes to go and how we deal with it. Or do they? no adults are required hmmph, thats real helpful. You got me, I don't have the training manuals handy." Ursus, how do you know they won't help you if you don't have the information on hand to look at? First read the materials then ask your questions. "What do they say about how to deal with it, which is what I asked for from the beginning. Please.. First of all they tell you how to lead a scouting program that teaches scouts the skills they need to camp on their own, They are in the rank requirements from Tenderfoot to First Class. Next you tell them that the patrol needs to show you their plan for the activity and you need to approve it. So as a trained leader what do you teach the Scouts to include in a plan?? If I were you I would look for those things you taught them. If you are unsure what those things are you should be teaching I would highly recommend a return to training, and read the scout handbook from Tenderfoot to First Class until you are familiar with the information. Next you need to make sure that the parents understand that the scouts will be on their own but that you are satisfied that they have the skills and the maturity to be just fine. You ask how you "deal with it" I do not know what that means? You don';t have to deal with anything...you have to lead! You evaluate their abilities and their plan, you communicate your concerns and your confidence in them, you support them, and if you feel that they are not ready you work with them on a compromise such as two adults going on the first one but camping nearby and not interferring except in safety matters. For this to be a part of a Scouting program it takes a certain skill level and maturity in the scouts and in the leaders. Good grief! If you have scouts that are First Class rank or higher but don't have the skills to be on their own for a day long activity or an overnight activity, then why were they advanced? How can someone trained and tested in planning, packing, shopping, cooking, camping, hiking, first aid, safety, working with others, and other skills not be capable and trusted to spend a day or a night without an adult around. Patrol activities have always been a part of Boy Scouting and so have the skills to do it. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you would like to see someone do something different with their property then buy it, make it your property, and do what you want with it. But you have no reason to expect to be able to tell other people what to do with their property. And you should have no resaon to expect that the owners want your opinion. The Councils legal obligation is to the finacial health of the council, not to preserving a "shrine" for people who do nothing to help support the finances of the council. Would you want your council to use the council funds to serve the scouts or preserve a shrine for people whoi do not even liven in your community. Executive boarsd members have a legal obligation to make good business decisions on behalf of the corporation. If people outside the council want a shrine then they need to be the ones to get into the shrine business.

Jet Page 3 of the G2SS Bullet #1 Under "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" BOLD type I added the underlined to make iteasy to find. 1) Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older.

No rants, just a little common sense, and a lot of understanding of the process. If anyone actually read the local tour permit with a patrol outing (that had no adults present) in mind, they would clearly see that there is nothing of any relative value that can put on the form. It simply is not designed for an activity with no adults present. I will offer it to BadenP who used to be a professional scouter for a few years at some point in time to list for us all the pertinent information that can be on a Tour permit if no adults are present. Here is what the BSA actual requires. Scoutmasters permission and an approved patrol plan, don't interfere with troop activities. While the Local Tour Permit is a helpful planning tool to make sure you have the appropriate adult leadership and proper safety conditions for vehicle operation, it has NOTHING on it regarding a Patrol activity with no adults. If you want a "CYA" element then teach the scouts how to be self reliant and trustworthy, then have permission slips from the parents fo the scouts to go on anactivity on their own without an adult. Ursus It just isn't this difficult to understand or to accomplish, and yes, I have been a leader in troops that frequently used Patrol activities without adults present, and if you have done your job of having a program that teaches Scouts the skills leading to First Class its a very natural progression in the program. There is nothing about Patrol activities that is contrary to anything I have ever posted. "Train Them, Trust Them, Let Them Lead" is all about youth being able to lead youth without adults having to be around. ***The Scoutmaster Specific Training has a section on outdoor adventure that explians Patrol activities. I am sorry if your trainers did not follow the syllabus. ***The Youth Protection Training talks about it in the video, I am sorry you missed it ***Even New Leader Essentials has an excercise that includes patrol activities. I am sorry if you didn't hear that scenario discussed. Page 22 of the Scoutmaster Handbook page 28 of the Patrol Leaders handbook Page 20 of the Boy Scout Handbook Page 3 Bullet #1 of the Guide to Safe Scouting All tell about Patrol activities without adults present, it is unfortunate that you you have never seen any of those. How many times does the the BSA program have to tell you about this one feature before you see it? This is not something that the BSA has ever tried to keep secret. Have I ever been a direct leader that did Patrol activities??? Evidently I am one of the very few on this forum who ever was or is. It seems I would be correct in sayiong that you are one of the leaders who never has. By the way as a Boy Scout my Patrol went on day activities and overnight activities on our own all the time. Didn't yours?

Adventurous, I am a little surprised over all the instructions to bring in the training on aquaintance rape and Personal Sfety training etc etc. None of thses things apply to your situation. Don't misunderstand me all leaders should take Youth Protection Trainig and youth memnbers should see the protection training for their appropriate age group at lleast once a year. But for a teenager to form a crush on an adult is not new, its not unnatuaral , and it certainly is not ilegal or immoral. It's a part of growing up for many people. The inportantthing here is tat you understand that to return that attention or to invite that attention would be improper and could easily become immoral or illegal if you do not keep a clear head and follow the BSA rules. The first step, and this is even discussed in the BSA Youth Protection Training, is that if a scout should say or do something that makes you uncomfortable is to tell them. You do not need to be angry or mean about, but be serious. Simply tell them that their words or actions make you uncomfortable and that they need top stop. If you have followed the rules and not done anything inapproprite at this point then yo have done nothing wrong. And unless the female scoputs hve said or done anything inappropriate to you then they have done nothing wrong either. A good leader understands the characteristics of youth they serve at the age and stage of development that they are in.

Rythos if the familes are coming to your facility as a family activity and unrelated to an organized pack or den activity then none of the BSA rules or policies apply to you or them. The BSA does not have authority, nor does it try to establish authority, over family activities done outside the sphere of scouting.

Hi Jet If you doubt that patrols can camp without adults you need only read the scoutmaster handbook, read the G2SS, attend Youth Protection, or read the PL Handbook. Patrol activities without adults have been an element of the BSA since its beginning. The local tour permit does not pertain to Patrol outings when then are no adults present. The Tour permit only pertains to outings where adults are required to be in attendance.

I am saying look at the local tour permit form and tell me which sections apply to a patrol outing where no adults are present. Troops and patrols are not the same. Troops have adult leadership, patrols have youth leadership. Before you hmmmph again actually look at the Local Tour Permit and list what sections would apply to an outing where no adults are present.

If you read the sections of Local Tour Permit you will see several sections that show that it is not an applicable form for a patrol outing when there is no adult supervision.

Shortridge, You pointed out in your own post where the flaw in your analogy rests. "and folks who live in the area or have an interest in the history". The folks who live in the Cradle of Liberty Council (CoLC) are welcome to plead their case. My question was about PhillyScout urging people who do not live in the area, and who have never done anything to help strengthen the financial condition of the CoLC, to suddenly poke their noses into the Cradle of Liberty's business and expecting that their opinion should matter. In the case you offer of the historic home, what usually happens is that either an outside group buys it and takes over the financial responsibilities that come with ownership, or the owner does what he or she wants with the property. If people outside of the council corporation want to buy the property and maintain it for perpetuity as a campground, shrine, pet cemetery ...whatever...thats fine, they would then be the owners and what they wanted to do with the land is up to them. But unless that new ownership happens, the property belongs to the council corporation and as a private concern they have the right to decide what to do with their own assets. While this land may be used by the scout units it is not owned by the scout units...it is owned by the council corporation. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is not unusual behaviour in teens. What is important is that you behavior is not intentionally inviting this attention and that you realize that you need to act in a mature and responsible adult fashion at all times with each member. Follow the Adult Responsibility rules in the BSA and you and the young women in the crew can have a safe and appropriate scouting experience.

I have mixed feeling on this that I will share ASM59. First, it is not unusual in some councils to have training fees for participants that cover the materials each person receives, the food they eat, even the cost of the facility in some cases. In some councils the cost of basic training courses are a part of the annual budget. But in many councils it is pay as you go. Here though was my biggest concern. They are going to do the Traininer Development/BSA 500 course in 4-hours??? There is only one way to accomplish that, and that is to leave out about 3.5 hours of information. I am not sure I would want to be on a trainng team that played that fast and loose with the training materials. You might suggest to them that you will reconsider being a trainer for them when they are willing to share all the training resources.

It seems to me a culture has been been established that exceeds the requirements for rank advancement. Since the BSA does not require a handbook to be present for a scout to pass a board of review then the unit has no authority to add it as a requirement. As the CC and CR you are in the best position to change this situation. Why could you not approach it as "until this happened within your own family you really had not understood the effect this has on the Scouts or that this is in violation of the BSA policies." ? That should open the door for the discussion and an opportunity to get the committee in line with the BSA advancement policies. The Scoutmaster has the responsibility to know where the Scout is when he goes before the board, and should tell the board if the scouts has any remaining requirements. The advancement chair also has a role in this. They should have accurate records of each scouts advancement and their completion of requirements available. So to put all the burden on the boy's Hanbook being present is really unnecessary. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No OGE, Silly me! When you said "what things does your troop do that gets kids excited?" It led me to believe that you only wanted to hear form Boy Scouts and their leaders. Now that I understand that when you said TROOP that you welcom information from Packs, Crews, and Ships, I understand your post more clearly, and hope to see what others do. In Cubs the Webelos spend a weekend aboard a submarine the Pack went to a rodeo In Boy Scouts the troop hiked on a glacier Went caving amd spent the night underground for a weekend Downhill skiing Cross country skiing hiked at Yellowstone did a boat tour of Glacier national park White water canoeing 75 mile overnight bike hikes rock climbed and rapelled visted a World Scout jamboree sledded down hills on garbage can lids, cardboard boxes, and inner-tubes climbed trees at a high COPE course just for a few adventures As Sea Scouts Took part in a Coast Guard search and rescue on the Great Lakes Race olympic class sailboats take boy Scouts sailing Fired off flare guns with the Coast guard sail approx 20 weekends a year Heck, notin to do here!

It's doubtful that they would call all sea Scouts officers since not all Sea Scouts have quaterdeck responsibilities. thoose that do are called Petty Officers currently, in order to distinguish adult officers from youth officers. As for the boats we use, we have Stars, Zumas, JY15s, a Sunfish, an O-Pen BIC, a San Juan 21, an ODay 19, and on a good day a MacGregor 25. Not sure what similarities or differennces we have the only foreign Sea Scout Leader I have met is from New Zealand, and our programs are very different. Fair Winds, BW

Really sorry, Here abouts we only refer to the youth as Sea Scouts. Good to meet you. So what kind of vessels do you sail or motor?

Hi Chug I don't know about Sea Scouts, but there are a few of us Sea Scout officers on this forum.

Webelos