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Bob White

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Everything posted by Bob White

  1. The on-line is new but it uses the same video that has been used for over 5-YEARS!
  2. Actually the problem extend to the SM who is responsibl;e for training and evaluating the scout who passed him incorrectly. The board is welcome to ask how the scout learned but they are charged with checking to see it was earned correctly not so much how it was learned. If it was not earned according to the handbook the board can reycle the scout to pass it according to the requirements. They CANNOT retest at the borad. The rules are specific if you read the manual. Bob White
  3. Just for clarification Ed, If the situation you suggest happened in a New Scout Patrol, how did an older more experienced scout get put into that patrol if he is not the Troop Guide? Where is the Troop Guide in your New Scout Patrol? What if the new scouts do not elect the older scout, since they probaly don't know him and have little in common with him? Why offer this scenario if you do not support it? You got me confused on this one. Bob White
  4. The issue here is not image. The issue that as a private organization the BSA can set it's own standards and rules iregardless of the opinions of the majority or minority of the volunteer members. The BSA has taken a stance against the use of Drugs, alcohol and tobacco in scouting. When you watch the new Youth Protection video you will see and hear that the BSA prohibits the use of tobacco at scouting events in the view of youth members. The BSA in an effort to recognize the difficulty many have with going an entiure weekend without smoking have agreed to allow tobacco use outside of the activity area, outside of the view of scouts. Adult leaders are responsible for seeing that all adults, including non-members comply with this regulation. The BSA gas the authority to permanently revoke the membership of registered members who violate this policy or who allow others to violate it. There is no personal interpretation in this, I gain nothing personal whether you smoke of not. I have lost 7 close scouting friends to lung cancer. None of them smoked in front of the scouts, but they are all dead just the same. I would hate to think that some young man l;ost his life prematurely because a scout leader was so self centered as to allow scouting to set such a deadly habit for the boy. As with ant scouting policy the choice is your to follow or not. But when a scout greaks a rule he doesn't agree with just remember it was you that taught him that behavior. Bob White
  5. Actually Eamonn even though we cannot promise a sfe haven according to BSA lawyers, I agree it is a good goal for all units to have in mind. If A unit takes testing seriously then retesting would not be needed. Again we come back to the responsibility of the Scoutmaster to train junior leaders, and the responsibility of Charter organizations to select and recruit responsible adult leaders. In response tp FOG. No, a Board of review may not and, cannot, retest scouts. They can however make sure that the requirement was accomplished in a manner according to the Scout Handbook. Please take time to familiarize yourself with the advancement policies in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Bob White
  6. Everyone needs to go to their council Website and link to the Youth Protection training video. "the use of tobacco products and alcohol in the presence of scouts is forbidden". (it may say "prohibited" but I believe the word they use is forbidden. The G2SS Warns leaders that they are responsible for seeing that OTHERS do not smoke in front of the scouts as well. Just as your mother would say "you may not go to mak's house." the G@SS warns registerted adukts that "you may not allow the use of tobacco in front of the scouts". The Youth Protection Training Instructs all adult leaders that if someone must use tobacco they must do so outsiude of the activity area out of view of the scouts. For any adult scout leader to use tobacco or to allow others to use tobacco in the view os youth members is totally irresponsible, and if they refuse to end the practice should be reported to the council scout executive for violating youth protection policies. It is not the family that wishes their son to have a leader set a good example that should have to leave. Bob White
  7. "Sammy 2nd Class is participating in his BOR. One of the board members asks Sammy "Who taught you your knots for this rank?" Sammy answers "No one." Ed, did it occur to anyone on the Board that Sammy taught himself the knots through studying the illustrations in the handbook and practicing them? You state in your first sentence that you know that the BOR is not the place to retest. Then in that last sentence you ask if the Board could retest in certain circumstances. I think you know the answer Ed, you said it yourself in your opening sentence. The BOR can ask HOW Sammy was tested. He can say he used the knots to erect a a _______(fill in the blank) at camp. The senior patrol leader saw it and asked who built it. The patrol Leader pointed to Sammy who said that "yes, I did it after breakfast. The SPL had Sammy get his handbook and he signed off on the requirement. THe Board says "great" and moves on to the next question. They absolutely cannot ask Sammy to tie the knots he used for them to see. Bob White
  8. I think the idea of having an older Scout who is more familiar with the BSA program be the Patrol Leader with the idea he is training his replacement from this Patrol. And this only works if the Troop utilizes the New Scout Patrol. How did that older more experienced scout become the Patrol Leader Ed? Perhaps you are refering to an older more experienced scout being selected by the SPL to be the Troop Guide in a New Scout Patrol? But that is not the same as being the Patrol Leader. The TG works with each scout as they rotate through the Patrol Leader position. That is, if the troop utilizes the New Scout Patrol. Something which I am glad to hear you support. Bob White
  9. If you choose to leave the solution to the PLC be sure to first share the national advancement policies and procedures that govern advancement with them. it would be counter-productive to have them decide on a solution that then had to be refused for being outside the policies of the BSA. Bob White
  10. In addition to the points you raise Ron, boys do not want to be told who the leader is and in Boy Scouts they should not be told who their leader is. You cannot expect a scout age boy to cooperate with a peer leader that he had no say in selecting. That is a basic part of the methodology of the patrol method. Bob White
  11. National Jamborees are not open to Venturers as participants. It is a Boy Scout and Varsity Scout activity. I do not know if the same holds for World Jamboree but if very possibly could. At 19-years-old your son would be ineligible to participate as a youth and the only aduilt position in a troop contigency that he would be eligible for is as a Third-Assistant-Scoutmaster. Hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)
  12. KS's advice is absolutely correct. I don't think anyone is suggesting one method be left out. Each method has it's own elements, purposes andd interactions with the others. This thread was discussing two of those inter-related methods of Patrol Methos and Leadership development. They happen to be key because these two are the catalyst and arenas for the other 6 methods. So yes, a balance is needed but so is an understanding of each of the 8. Bob White
  13. The BSA will look at the specific category of crime and at the age of it. If your record contains only what you have told us there will probably not be a problem. It is important that you tell the truth on the aplication. If you say that there was never a conviction and the background check turns one or more up, then that could exclude you from membership. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)
  14. FOG if you want behave like this do it in a private message. There is nothing positive gained on this board by your constant personal lies and attacks on me or by your criticisms of a scouting program you neither like or understand.(This message has been edited by Bob White)
  15. Dear Ed, I think most everyone realizes that a bulletin board does not lend itself to the same style or vocal tools such as inflection, pitch, volume and pace that a person to person training situation offers. On the board I can see how some of the things written might be misinterpreted based on idividual moods and bias. That being said I have never had anyone attack me personally, or the scouting program, with the same degree of hostility shown by FOG or with the depth of misuse of the program that you have shared. It would not matter what I posted the two of you seem bent on distorting it in some way. This is a path you two have chosen not me. No one else is attacked in such a way by either of except when they challenge FOG. I am comfortable that the other posters and lurkers understand that my emphasis is on understanding and following the BSA program, though some may not always share the same interprtation. Only you and FOG seem to think that I am the one outside the box on this and have chosen to make it personal. Happy scouting, Bob White
  16. Glad we agree you have a medication problem:) At no time did anything I write violate the G2SS and you know that. I believe we are still waiting for some constructive solutions from you. You have already expressed your distrust of the program, now share your solution. Why wait for others to agree or disagree. You continually point out the problems with the program without ever offering a serious validated solution. Share with us your vision of what leadership is and how in can be accomplished in scout aged boys.
  17. Laura, to answer your question takes an entire course in scoutmaster training. That is why training for leaders is so important. It is not me putting the responsibility of training junior leaders on scoutmasters, that is one the the major points in the Scoutmasters job description. How he or she does it is called the scouting program. Now I am not trying to be smug, but that really is what the program is, an educational method where we teach character, citizenship and fitness to scouts through the implimentation of 8 specific methods. I never said that a troop that follows the scout program runs without a hitch. In fact I and others have said exactly the opposite, that a troop that runs by the scouting methods is designed to have problems. These hurdles are part of the learning and growth process. Show me a perfect trop and I'll show you the adults who are doing the boy's work. These leaders, who do not let scouts lead because they make mistakes, are not only missing the boat, they can't even see the water. The best way for a new leader to get on track is 1. Go to training and pay attention, ask questions, keep a good attitude. 2. Familiarize yourself with the resources, read the Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader Handbooks. 3. Attitude is everything. respect and enjoy the scouts and they wil respect and enjoy you. 4. Train the SPL and Patrol leaders monthly. then all of you practice the leadership skill for the month. 5. Lead by asking not telling. 6. Adapt and overcome. If the scouts have a hard time with dishes teach them utensiless cooking. 7. find an experienced scouter (who understands the program) to mentor you for a year. 8. With the committee select and recruit two or three ASMs to help, insist they attend training then give them specific tasks to work on to allow you the time you need to do the job of SM. I hope this helps, Bob White
  18. FOG you realy haven't a clue what this program is all about.
  19. HI FOG, First it is not fair to misrepresent me and then try to deny me the opportunity to correct your misrepresentation. I believe that the scouting program is an educational method that among other skills can teach a scout age child the skills of leadership and give him the opportunity to practice and develop those skills in a leadership role in a patrol or troop. It is not reasonable to say all 11-year olds are great leaders, any more than one can say that all adults will be great leaders. It is sufficient at this stage of their development to be learning ang practicing leadership, and scouting is one of the few places that will allow them that opportunity, IF the adult leaders understand what they are supposed to be doing. Has everyone tried to make 11-year-olds leaders. Of course not. You are a self proclaimed example of a supposed scout leader who doesn't like or follow the program. You are not alone though I believe you are a minority. You have not seen it work. No, You have not made the effort to make it work. You do not trust the ability of children to learn these concepts. All things good except parts of the G2SS what are you talking about now? That's ridiculous and you know it. What part of the G2SS have I ever said I disagreed with? I know scouts of any age can be taught leadership skills not just 11-year-olds. How? By following the scouting program. SO FOG, tell us what impenetrable mental, physical or social barrier exists in 11-year-olds that makes it impossible for them to succeed in leadership.(This message has been edited by Bob White)
  20. "Training is all well and good but it only goes so far." Finally, we get to the crux of the matter. You do not think that an 11 year old can be taught how to lead or how to put others before himself. You either do not understand or not believe in the scouting program. Because that is exactly the point of the entire program from its birth nearly 100 years ago. The entire thrust is that kids can learn to "help other people at all times, they can learn to plan, and lead, and evaluate, and improve, and they can do it with trained adults teaching specific techniques to boy leaders. You have finally brought to light why your attitude is so dark, your criticisms so constant and your methods undisclosed. You don't like the handbooks, you don't like the rules you don't like the uniform or the parents or the kids that won't follow orders. You are mad because you don't think kids are capable and you don't understand what scouting is all about. You see others can getting the results the program promises and you can't do it, so you think there must be something wrong with the program. Well FOG, Boblands exist all over the world in units that actually know and use the scouting methods. In some areas it is called Matualand, and KSland, and MK9750land, and Eamonnland,and Danland, and OGEland just to name afew. You're just upset that practically no one wants to play ball in Fogland. It's not too late. The information is available the training is available. All it takes is a willingness on your part to change and play the scouting way. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)
  21. There are some terrific trails in the Adirondacks and they are just a stones throw from the Whites. Try contacting the Twin Rivers Counil in Albany, NY. They can probably put you in touch with a scouter who knows that area. Bob White
  22. So Fog, given the choice of being able to have a patrol that got along and cooperated, or the squabbling patrol that the old guy in khaki who didn't understand leadership gave the bad advice to, which would you rather have? Which do you feel best represents the scouting program? Bob White By the way do you have any constructive advice on the topic of advising a patrol leader to help him can get the job done and keep the group together. Take a stab at it, you can't do worse than the guy in khaki did.
  23. It all comes back to the Scoutmaster. No boy joins Boy Scouts knowing how to teach and test others. It must be taught to them. Devoloping these scouts, and evaluated their work is the job of the of the scoutmaster. The SM is responsible for keeping a list of who is qualified to test for advancement. If the SM is not aware of the job these scouts or adults are doing then it is his problem. Anyone not using good testing techniques or abiding by the requirements of the handbook should be removed from the responsibility to test until he or she is ready to do so properly. I recommend you go the the SM and say that he or she needs to see that there are people cabable of testing according to the scout handbook and policies. Let the SM know that you expect to see scouts at these boards who have earned the rank. That being said the board does have the authority to ask how a requirement was met, but they cannot retest. If the book says that the scout ties the knot and the scout said he watched the SPL tie it and then sign the book, the board can require the scout to go back and pass the requirement correctly. What the board cannot do is say "here tie the knot for us". Bob White
  24. So does this mean that you have no constructive information on helping a patrol leader to operate an effective patrol capable of getting the job done and keeping the group together? I'm shocked!
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