Bob White

it's a deal

A full uniform, fine postured, snappy scout salute to mk9750. Excellent understanding of the leadership methods of scouting. BW

By coincidence Captnkirk all the Scoutmasters I know are human as well, even the ones who have read the handbooks:). Bottom line is that the Scoutmaster is the program leader of the troop. If a troop is not employing the methods of scouting correctly or not at all, then the responsibility falls squarely on the Scoutmaster and no one else. I see no failure in a leader who is trying and learning along the way, much as in the way scouts learn. But it is is something else to be the SM and not make the effort to deliver an actual scouting program. Which by no surprise is found in the training and handbooks of the scouting movement. (By the way I really don't have the books memorized page and verse. I know the program and the resources they are contained in and I just look thngs up as I go along.) Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Twocubdad, Opportunities for independence are not rewards handed out for learning but are application opportunities that are directly linked to the skill level of the scout. There are many such opportunities sprinkled throughout the program. Unfortunately many scouts never get these opportunities because they never recieve the skill instruction that makes them possible. At no time did I advocate sending a Patrol of new scouts off on their own for a campout. By why couldn't they do an activity on scale with their abilities such as a cleanup project at a local park? These small opportunities to practice the skills and values of scouting on their own as a patrol have huge growth experiences as a result. As I wrote previously and Dsteele shared some of, there are guidelines and sugestions about how and what to do in the various troop handbooks, that are largely unknown because the books were never read. The answers of how to make scouting work are covered far more thoroughly in the handbooks of scouting than in this or any other forum. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I hope we can all agree that scouting is a positive activity for developing positive behavior in scouts. i bring this up because of this quote. "Positive youth development builds resolve and resiliency in young people by surrounding them with positive messages and positive influences, enhancing their personal strengths and enabling them to resist risky behaviors, such as smoking." It comes form a website on the importance of keeping youth from smoking. It stresses that positive role modeling has a huge effect on youth. Oh yes the site www.philipmorrisusa.com the world's largest manufacturer and distributor of tobacco products. So think about that the next time you allow someone to smoke in front of the scouts. Bob White

"I would not trust my son's safety to a group of 14- and 15-year-olds. There's just too much room for mischief." The difference, Twocubdad, between feeling as you do and not feeling that way is a trained scoutmaster doing their job. If you wouldn't trust the safety of another person to a 15-year-old scout, then an adult has not done their job. After all that's what the entire program is here to do. Bob white (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In 35 words or less write a job description for a scoutmaster.

As for as the advancement goes anyone approved by the Scoutmaster can sign off on the requirement. However passing the swimming requirements does not mean he does not have to requalify for summer camps, BSA high adventure and other activities. Most of these will require that the scout complete the swimming test to the satisfaction of a lifeguard. Because of that I usually had a certified lifeguard as my assigned person for these requirements, just so that I wouldn't be setting a scout up for failure down the road. Bob White

Sure Twocubdad, Patrol activity without adult leadrship has been an important and practical element of the Patrol Method since it's development in early 1900 by Baden-Powell. Remember when you a boy and played in the neighborhood with your friends? Well so did B-P. His plan for scouting was to build a better boy. One that not only knew how to play but knew how to work and how to care for others. He developed an educational program that would increase a boys skills in a variety of areas. The boy would make better decisions, work and play harder. Now think about it, if as an untrained boy you could run around and play with your friends without two adults overseeing your every move, then why as a boy with advanced skills and maturity should you need them? I remember in the summers when parents were a lot of kids would ride their bikes about 5-miles or more to the public pool and spend the day there. Should my friends and I who were trained in bike safety, first aid, swimming and working together need to have two parents along when the other boys who were not anywhere as trained and prepared as we were not required to have adult chaperones. What is the point of training boys if you do not train them well enough to trust them? For that reason the scouting movement has always had as its goal to develop the scouts to the point where they can act and succeed independently. We do that through the Patrol activities. Remember that this is not a blank check to go anywhere anytime and do anything the patrol wants. This is not the ultimate reward, this is one step in developing independence and maturity. B-P said that if you want total results you need to give them total responsibility and trust. Remember to that this is not done all at once. The program suggests that you go in steps based on the skills and abilities of the patrol. I get a kick from those leaders who say "But my scouts couldn't possible be trusted to go out alone" or "we've never had a patrol with enough skills to do patrol activities". To discover both the problem and the solution to these dilemas the Scoutmaster needs only to gaze into the nearest mirror. Preparing boys for this independence is what being scoutmaster is about. If a scout can't..it's because a Scoutmaster didn't. As far as the difference between patrol and troop outings and adult leadership, you need to understand the difference in leading a group, and cooperative leadership among leaders. It takes a much higher degree of leadership skill understanding to lead a large group through a chain of command than a small group with a single leader. Scouting has determined that when multiple youth leadership is present boys need adult leadership available to help guide them through the higher level leadership skills. In addition we know that large groups of boys require more logistical support, and the locations capable of handliing larger groups require in their rules to have adult presence as well. I hope this answered your question. It's a good topic and one I enjoy discussing. Bob White

Timm, Understand that there is a difference between troop and patrol activities. Scoutmaster is a troop position of responsibility, nut a patrol is a youth lead, youth member unit. The Boy Scout handbook, The Scoutmaster handbook, and the Guide to Safe Scouting, all allow for a patrol to hike and camp on it's own. Only one patrol though. Once more than one patrol gathers it is a troo[ event, and troop events require two deep leadership. In the scout handbooks you will see that there are certain guidelines that a ptrol must follow in order to do this. A scoutmaster has as an option to having no adults go with to having adults in near proximity. How near is determeined by the SM based on the skills of the scouts, the activity they are involved in and the requirements of the activity area. The role of adults on troop overnighters is no different than their role at troop meetings, observe, evaluate, support. make sure the scouts are safe and healthy and that the program is being delivered. It would be a good idea to read the appropriate chapters in the scouting handbooks first, then come back with any specific questions. Hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Or clear rewards. Right?

GE there would be no reason for you to know of the G2SS if you are not a regidterd scouter. However, that being said the scoutmaster and every trained leader in you unit is aware of the G2SS and of Youth Protection. There would be no acceptable reson for them to not be aware of the alcohol, drugs and tbacco policies of the BSA. Your Unit leaders are ultimately responsible for the policies of scouting being adhered to in you runit's program activities and camsites. You are right to ask "why didn't someone know" but you need to ask the right people. The one who should have known and acted in accordance to BSA regulations is your Scoutmaster. Bob White

Keep in mind you are asking for our personal interprtation of what someone of unknown authority wrote for a local event. My guess is that they do not wantyou using tobacco at all even outside of the activity area outsid ehte view of the scouts. That could be fo any number of reasons such as fire or litter control. No matter what their intention what they write does not supercede the Youth Protection Policies of the BSA. So even if they were to say that smoking was permitted it would still have to be in a designated area out of view of the scouts. What I don't understand is why your unit leader for the event did not contact the event chair and ask for clarification? Communication is after all a two-way street. A simple call might have cleared all this up. Bob White

Let's keep in mind our role as scoutleaders and our responsibilities to the unit as a whole. This took place on a scout activity involving other youth in a stunt that could easily have injured others. The Cub is the parents responsibility as well as the leaders. If the parent does not show the judgement needed then the leader must act according to the scouting program. The G2SS says and the Cub Scout Leader Handbook says to send the scout home. Then, since the poster stated this is a "constant behavior problem" The G2SS instructs that the committee meet with the parents to determine the next course of action, up to and including revocation of membership. As Ed poits out this advice is well and good. It also follows the safety policies of the BSA. Cleboeyf, you serve your scouts better by seeking BSA programs and methods whenever possible, rather than random opinions, no matter how well intended thay might be. Bob White

Constant behavior problems should be reported to the unit commiyttee. It is their responsibility to deal with the scout and the parent., so that you can focus on delivering the scouting program. the committee will determine with the parent what course of action is to be taken to insure the safety of the scout in question as well as the safety of others and the delivery of the scouting program in the unit. If neededd the committee Chair and charter organization representative can remove the scout from membership in the unit.you will find this process outlined in the Guide to Safe Scouting in the section on Membership Responsibilities. Bob White

No, "Might not allow" would mean you might not allow it. To tell a person "you may not use my telephone" does not mean they can if they want to. Why if you understand the goal of the rule would you fight it because you do not like the phrasing. Why not follow the rule because you know it's purpose? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual gives the process for what to do. A BOR responsibility does not include determining whether the scout had sufficient skill, only if the requirement was met according to the handbook. For instance. If the book says to make a list and the scout did not, then the board can tell him he needs to make a list and present it to an appropriate leader to have the requirement aknowledeged as complete. The board can then certify that the rank has been completed once all requirements have been completed according to the handbook, no more, no less. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Laura, it is been my experience that you cannot have a good troop without a good scoutmaster. I can see haow you might be frustrated. the pfoblems you are describing are areas of Scoutmaster responsibility. Since you are not the scoutmaster the only way you can resolve these issues is by getting the scoutmaster to address them. Training is a big part of it. Youth leadership needs to be taught and developed. Kids can run a sandlot ballgame becasue they understand how to play ball. You cannot expect them to run scouting without the same understanding of the game. That is a SM's responsibility. Scoutmasters who feel the need to be "in charge" of everything will never have the time to do the things thety are actually responsible for. Start with choosing monthly themes tied to an outdoor adventure that requires that theme skill to be used. Make patrols independent, self reliant and reposible for their own actions or inaction. Lead by example and guide youth leaders by asking there opinion and then letting them choose their actions from the options that you helped guide them to. Set the example, have the adults operate as a patrol,have posted duty rosters and menus. Cook easy by interesting meals in various styles. Box oven, utensiless, dutch oven, grilled, one pot, reflector, dehydrated. Teach the PLC to make and follow agendas. Untrained leaders are like cars that are up on blocks. No matter how much noise the engine makes it is still not going to go anywhwere. Scouts can usually see a difference between an untrained parent and a trained scout leader. These are just general suggestions based on what youwrote. If you want to write me by private message with more specific questions about what your responsibilities are I will try to help. But try as we might, together we cannot change other people we can only change ourselves. Bob White

Shell please see you private message. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As presented by FOG "A BOR can do whatever they wish to do. They can ask the Scout to play the fiddle while they do Irish step dancing. They can play craps with the Scout. They can even make the Scout sit in a comfy chair." Can anyone provide a scouting reference to support this statement? Bob White

Oh for Pete's sake Ed. You wrote this didn't you? " I think the idea of having an older Scout who is more familiar with the BSA program be the Patrol Leader with the idea he is training his replacement from this Patrol. And this only works if the Troop utilizes the New Scout Patrol."

sst3rd If you check the responsibilities of the BOR you will see that along with discussing the scouts growth and the scouts evaluation of the troop program, the board is responsible for checking to see if the scout performed the requirements in the book. I agree that it should not be an issue in a properly lead unit. But that is what the BOR is checking. To see if the advancement is being properly administrated. As members of the committee the Board has a responsibility to see that the program is being followed and delivered. bob White

What scouting resource do you have to support that opinion FOG? By the way FOG you mistype from time to time too.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yes they do Ed, You just don't want them to.

You are probably not an ill-educated person, you are simply following an selective interpretation that allows you to put your own personal preferences before the good of the scouts or the desire of the scouting program. Bob White