Bob White

I agree with DS that often the task is delegated to the committee. I would recommend the committee politely refuse. This process is in place not only to help the committee decide where best to use this person's skills, but as a legal responsibility of the CO. the Committee cannot aprove an adult leader. The Committee Chair who is selected by the CO and the IH or COR approve them. The CO should not be taking legal responsibility for this volunteer if they have not taken the time to check references. The parents should expect better protection for their children than to place then in the care of someone who has only been cleared by the personal opinion or the CC and one committee member. Bob White

Pounder, Why would youth have to be excluded from a Venturing Roundtable? They are not required to be excluded from Boy Scout Roundtables. And I am curious as to why you think Roundtables are for leaders to gather and gab? That's like saying troop meetings are for scouts to meet and play basketball for an hour. There may be roundtables as you describe but that is no more the pupose or program of roundtable that the basketball game/troop meeting. Bob White

First off Ed your mighty Bob White comment was uncalled for. no one attacked you personally. Secondly your previous post never addresses what you would do. So I will ask again. Other posters have said that altthough they would like the wording to be different that they will not allow the use of tobacco in view of the scouts because they nderstand the purpose as explained in the YP training video and on-line. So Ed, will YOU allow anyone at a scouting activity to use tobacco in view of the youth? It's just a yes or no answer. Bob White

Aeveryone has a right to be wrong sometimes including local scouting profressionals. The most important question is Ed, will YOU allow anyone at a scouting activity to use tobacco in view of the youth? Bob White

It's strange twocub, because my experience has been just the opposite. I have trained hundreds of adults in youth protection and we review this policy and no one has ever raised any confusion over the meaniong of this policy. Ever! Except for a few posters on this forum. I invite you to read this phrase to an engish teacher at any grade level and ask them for its meaning. I'm confident they will tell you that the adult leaders are not to allow anyone to use tobacco in front of the youth at a scout activity. I really believe there are three groups who oppose the wording. Some like yourself who support the rule but disagree with the sentence structure, and others who lack the personal principles to tell others not to smoke in front of the boys and either want the written word to do the work for them to avoid confrontation OR leaders that have no intention of supporting the policy and are using what they see as loopp hole to allow them to ignore the welfare of the scouts and put their own habits first. Whether or not you like the wording, or whether or not the wording is changed, the important thing is that you accept its purpose and that you do not allow tobacco use in view of the scouts, and as a parent I appreciate that. Bob White

Although I disagree almost entirely with Nj on this topic I do feel I need to say when he is correct as well as when I believe he is incoorect. To say that the methods and policies of scouting have changed over the years is an accurate statement. When Eagledad counters with "HMMM not really.........I can't find any changes that challenged the aims or the program ideals of the day." that's because the aims and mission of the program are not the same as the methods and policies. Policies are the rules of the program. For instance it used to be a policy that women could not serve as Scoutmasters. That has changed. Methods are the way we reach the aims. Competition used to be a method of scouting, it no longer is, so yes the methods have changed. Where NJs argument bites the dust in in the false premise that at one time avowed homosexuals were acccepted as members in the BSA. That has never been true. In earlier times in our culture avowed homosexulas were not accepted by anyone including by "closeted" homosexuals. It is only in fairly resent years that the BSA chose to form a publicly stated policy, because as a private organization they technically and legally are not required to have one. But yes, the methods and policies of the BSA do change sometimes. It is even possible they will change o this topic, however I find than very unlikely. Bob White

Ed, Yes! Bob

"Same wording in the G2SS." No it's not Ed. Its not even close. This woould be the same wording using cars. "Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without automobiles and may not allow the use of automobiles at any BSA activity involving youth participants." Ed that has an entirely different meaning than "Bob, I may not allow you to drive my car." The problem is I really don't think you see the difference.

"And Bill Clinton never had relations with that Lewinski women, either!" Has anyone ever lied to cover up something they did right? Are we really to believe that Philip Morris is lieing about what their product to hide thae fact that they are a healthy product with nothing but healing and regenerative side efffects, but they don't want the public to know? PPPLLLEEEAAASSSEE! Let's rejoin the real world. Even the manufacturers say this is a product and activity that should not be used in front of minors, and they agree that there are harmfull health effects from second-hand smoke. Anyone willing to overlook overwhelming evidence such as this, in order to allow tobacco use in front of scouts, needs to take a serious look at what their motivation is. I have to think that they ar either unconcerned about the scouts and wiling to put their personal bias ahad of the wlfare of the scouts they serve, or they lack the leadership and personal strength to protect the scouts from those who are willing to expose them to the harmfull habit of tobacco use. This has nothing to do with your definition of "may not". This is about what our actions should be as adults who have accepted responsibility to safeguard other peoples children while they are with us. Rule or no rule, prohibiting tobacco use in front of the scouts is the right thing to do. You should not need a written rule to get you to do what is right. Bob White

We have University of Scouting each year and Cub Leader Pow Wow every other year. Neither are particularly well attended any more. That is largely our fault and not the attendees. Personally I am not happy with the repetetive nature of the program content or with the budgets. Bob W.

Ah gee whiz Wally, I don't about the rest of ya, but I think the Beav may be on to somethin here. Bob White

How about this, A Scoutmaster trains boys to be leaders, makes available to them the resources and guidance they need to lead well, and then steps into the background to let them do their jobs. To me this is what being a Scoutmaster is all about. The problem that I see most often, and that is apparent in many of the posts on this forum, is that the scoutmasters are not stepping back. If you believe that you have done your job then stepping back should hold no trepidation for you. If you think you have done your job, how will you know until you step back? If you can't step back because you haven't done your job then maybe you need to change what you are doing, or step aside rather than back. So can you accept and agree with the definition? Bob White

janssenil, You raise two problems, but only one is yours (the packs) and that is having enough leaders to deliver a quality program to the boys in your community. Take the family problems happening between the boys parents and put them aside. You are not a judge or a marriage counselor do not try to find a compromise between the parents. Instead, do what serves the boy the best. If the boy wants to be in a den with his cousin, make it happen. If Dad wants to be cubmaster or den leader have him pick ONE. If mom wants to be a den leader let her. Don't put yourself in the middle of their problems. Let them know that you intend to put the needs of their son first, and you expect them to do the same. Don't think that you have a small pack when you have 20 wolves. You do not have a small pack you just need to improve your adult leadership selection process. Get a copy of Foundations for Selecting Unit Leaders from your council service center. Folow the program it lays out for you. By the way you really need to have 3 Wolf Dens. 10 boys in a den is too big. Good Luck, Bob White

You are correct twocubdad.

Who do you suppose has the right information? GeBlack says; "Concerning the issue of smoking and disease, numerous studies have been made and not one has been able to establish a causal relationship between smoking and any disease although many have tried. What does exist is the general belief that this is so which has been fostered by a massive disinformation campaign funded by the federal government and private organizations." and " In fact, there have been studies which show that smoking could actually prevent some types of cancer," Now compare those statements with these: " We agree with the overwhelming medical and scientific consensus that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and other serious diseases in smokers. Smokers are far more likely to develop serious diseases, like lung cancer, than non-smokers. There is no "safe" cigarette." and "Philip Morris USA believes that the public should be guided by the conclusions of public health officials regarding the health effects of secondhand smoke in deciding whether to be in places where secondhand smoke is present, or if they are smokers, when and where to smoke around others. Particular care should be exercised where children are concerned, and adults should avoid smoking around them." These last two statements are from Phillip morris USA's website. They are the opinion of the company that makes more ciggarettes thanm anyone else in the world.http://www.philipmorrisusa.com/health_issues/default.asp So, who are you going to believe? Bob White

As far as troop committee training goes you are correct. It consists of New Leader Essentials followed by Troop Committee Challenge, which is a three hour course designed to be done with the entire committee. The scoutmasters and ASms are not required to attend. We have found that a good time to do this is alongside a troop lock-in or while the scouts are doing the Troop Leader Training Workshop. It is an excellent course. I also recommend as the training coordinator that you attend Trainer Development/BSA 500.

NJ, A Time to tell is the youth protection video for 11-14 year-olds. A new tape was released abou 18-months ago for the older teens and Venturing scouts called Youth Protection: Personal Safety Awareness. Anyone can can present these videoes to the youth. There are a list of discussion questions near the back of the Scoutmasters Handook. It is highly recommended that yo first notify all parents in writing that this topic will be covered at a specific meeting, and a video will be use. hen set up a preview night for parets only, where thay can preview the program prior to giving permission for their son to participate Youth Protection Training for Adults must be presented by a trainer approved by the scout executive, since local laws and contact procedures must be shared, that are not in the syllabus. Bob white(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I checked there too DS and found a similar statement about the Troop Guide on page 106 but not about the patrol leader. BW

Life has risks, You being with the boy didn't prevent the broken leg. But again the SM would need to be aware of the potential dangers and make sure the scouts are prepared(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Welcome nivipi, I can understand how you would not be able to agree with some of my posts. Even some on this board who share the same program I do will not agree on everything. So I can image the difficulty you would have when your program is so different from ours. Welcome again, Bob White And yes, of course you can call me Bob.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You are correct that the scout was fortunate an adult was neaer. But your scenario does not fit with the ground rules of the BSA program. First of all only Patrol activities can have activities without adult leaders present and patrols cannot have girls in them. Mountain climbing would not be an approved patrol event because it requires adult supervision according to the safety poicies of the BSA. Patrols must file a trip plan with the scoutmaster and dangerous areas would not be approved by a competent leader (and if he or she were an incompetent leader the scout would be at risk anyway). So where does the line get drawn? In the program policies and regulations of the BSA. The question really isn't should we do patrol activities or shouldn't we? The BSA movement has already ansered that in this country. The opportunities for patrol activities are promised in the Boy Scout handbook and taught at all leadership levels. The question is are you leading a strong enough program to support it? Bob White

I agree with GE 100% and I fully endorse prohibiting the driving of motor vehicles in campsites by any member of the BSA. In addition, I would support a rule that adult leaders may not allow the driving of motor vehicles by anyone in campsites. Bob White

Welcome nivipi, out of curiosity what country are you a leader in. I understand your concern about safety, I believe we have that covered in requiring the scouts to ahve the skills to do the activity. As far as parents expectation, part of the BSA program for patrol activities is the parents confirming that they understand that no adults will be present. Certainly no one is recommending that you drop the scouts off and not telling the parents that they have no adult supervision. Bob White

Hi NJ, If you want to read "sphere of influence" in the way you have, that is up to you, but that is not the way it was meant or applied. Where does the BSA say it is neither predjudiced or bigoted? Before anyone goes ballistic please look up the definition of each and understand that those words do have a LEGAL and positive application. To be bigoted one needs only to hold an unalterable position or opinion. To say "no one who has committed a violent crime against children can hold membership in the BSA' is bigoted. Everyone who wants that to change raise your hand...hmmmm. To say that "I prefer a troop that uses the patrol method over a troop that doesn't use the patrol method" is predjudiced. It is also true. An elementary school PTO that charters a pack only for students at that school is predjudiced. They are also allowed to do that both legally and by the BSA regulations. So the BSA has always been bigoted and predjudiced. As a lawyer you know that to be true and legal. We still have not answered my question. You think the BSA is wrong because you do not like what they think the rules should be. The BSA thinks you are wrong because they don't like the way you want the rules to be. So what is the difference? The difference is that it is not within your responsibility to set the rules of the BSA. As volunteer leaders our job is to deliver the BSA program as designed by the BSA. That is what you promised to do when you signed your application. Just because you are the choir director at the Baptist Church does not give you the authority to set the tenets of the church, and you can't see any song you want just because you like it. Your actions be within the needs and wants of the church. This is not your program, this is the program you agreed to follow and deliver. Bob White

Hi DSteele, I'm looking at The Patrol Leader Handbook, page 39, and that's not what I am seeing. it says that "a troop usually consists of 3 types of patrols 1.New-Scout patrols, 2.Regular patrols,3. Venture patrols" and "the new-scout patrol elects a patrol leader just as the other scouts do". Could you share exactly where in the book you found the info you shared? Thanks, Bob