Bob White

Foto, Although you have no control over how the parents or others treat the scout, you have absolute and total control over how YOU treat him. You need to do the right thing. Mimmicking the scout in front of others is not the right thing to do no matter how you try to rationalize it. Bob White

First Class, Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols, District Training Coordinator, and some National stuff.

And I would see scoutdad's approach as scout-like. It's helpful,friendly, courteous and kind. Sorry foto but i do not see your method as mocking "praise in public, criticize in private", I see it as simply ignoring it and mocking the child, and I would bet the scout and others would think the same thing. Scoutdad's suggestion is the way to go. Bob White

The BSA researched zip-offs for two years in cooperation with the US Army. Both determined that the pants were not functional under heavy use, plus, since the pieces were not worn and washed at the same time they faded at differing rates making the uniform unsightly. Both organizations decided not to introduce zip-offs as uniform options. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is quite common for units chatered to the same charter organization to have the same number. BW

"And you prostrated yourself at their feet in abject adoration." I will accept that in the Friendly, Courteous, and Kind manner in which I'm sure it was intended. No actually, I said hello and served on training staffs with a few of them. I want apologize if any small amount of credibility on my part interferes with anyones personal joy of sharing in baseless criticisms of unknown voluteers. F Scouter, I thought Peter and Paul made Mounds and Almond Joy?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

We have organized one in this District to a Catholic Church and I begin organizing another next week. So far no problems only good stuff. We are basically taking what was a rather ragtag teen encounter group and using the Venturing structure to organize and develop its program. We include the 13 year olds as guests and the 14-yaer-old and older teens are the officers and program leaders. Bob White

Good for you KS, I would have expected no less from you. The idea that the ideals of the program, as expressed in the Oath and Law, can be separated from the program itself is flawed from the start. It is the values foound in the ideals of scouting that is the skeleton that gives the program form. The program is merely an outer expression of the values. for the program to function as designed both the methods of scouting and the behavior of the members must follow the traits expressed in the Oath and Law. Every behavioral decision of a scouting member is expected to use the Oath and the Law as its guide. That is precisely the mission of the BSA. Unless you have personal knowledge or experience that proves otherwise I stand by the view that the program materials were written by people who can make a good program happen. I have met some of these people and speak from personal knowledge rather than personal skepticism. Are there rules not covered by the Scout Law. Since rules are what you decide to follow and the Law is what you should base the decision on I don't see how they can be separated. Are there rules not covered in the scouting resources. Sure, but they are for the most artificial rules. As we saw in the example of the BOR the program does cover it. Whether the unit follows the program suggestions is up to the unit. Ignore enough program features and the only part that becomes recognizable as scouting is the uniform. Scouting never promised to do things our way, we promised the scouting program that you would do it the BSA way. More importantly we promised the scouts they would get a scouting program. That is the program that scouting wrote. Perhaps we could call this first one a draw. Who can give another example of a rule a unit needs to have that is not already covered by the law or a scouting resource? Bob White

"Maybe those who write the books live in a different world." Let's consider that for a moment. First of all it is currently impossible for that to be true on a physical level. On a philosphical level perhaps. But it is we who agreed to be the volunteers in their world. We signed an agreement to follow their program, not the other way around. On a practical experience level, I would agree that not all volunteers (and the books were written by volunteers) operate the program at the same level, but think about how the people who wrote the handbooks were selected. It was because of their ability to deliver a quality program. Do they operate scouting in a way that might seem unworldly to some? I hope so! Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"the boys are not he target audience here, the parents are" Then perhaps you should be mimmicking the parents and not the children? I think gambling a child's self image on the belief that he has a short memory is not a reasonable course of action or respectful of the scouts we serve. Bob White

Agreed Buffalo2, The point is that the program guides us to make the BORs reular and frequent and suggests they be done the same place and nights as troop meetins. Also that they be arranged by the SM. The Scout shouldn't have to request a service from us. We are there to provide the service to them. We need to remember who is working for whom here. Bob White

In case you did not already know, every merit badge handbook is being updated by the year 2005. At which time no MB book will be more than 5 years old. Then requirements and contents of individual merit badges will then be updated as technology and standard practices evolve. BW

If you review my posts in this thread you will see that I never said "during" the meeting. I said "at " the meeting. You assumed it was during. You say the results are the same only the wording is different. Do the ends justify the means? Aren't the methods and ideals of scouting the elements we use to achieve the results? They are as important as the results themselves. It is not just a difference in wording. It is a difference in attitude and approach. It's the scouting difference. Bob White

"I don't see anything that says that they should be done at troop meetings. Holding them concurrent with troop meetings pulls Scouts out of the program and is counterproductive." It's in the Scoutmaster handbook, and in the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training.

OK How about this, A Scout is trustworthy, and as leaders we can show that to the Scouts and families by following and delivering a real scouting program as designed by the BSA. The Scoutmaster Handbook, and Scoutleader training recommend that BORs be done at troop meetings on a regular basis. Following the scouting program is the trustworthy thing for leaders to do. Isn't it? Following the policies of the program (YP, Uniforming, advancement, membership), is the obedient thing to do. The mission of the BSA is to make ethical decisions based on the values of the Oath and Law. Isn't unit leasdership simply a series of ethical decisions? So aren't the Scout Oath and Law directly involved in all elements of troop operation? (The ways we choose to do those tasks are the outward expression of our inner values) Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As Monty python would say And now for something completely different! A Scout is Helpful, A Scout is Friendly, Page 61 of the Boy Scout Handbook "...your Scoutmaster will arrange for your board of review." Page 122 of the Scoutmaster Handbook A troop should schedule its boards of review to occur on a regular basis so that the Scouts and leaders plan for them well in advance. Currently the committee (in the Troop I serve) holds BORs on the first and third meeting night of each month. Once the Scout has his Scoutmaster Conference, The SM and the Scout choose a meeting night to meet with the board. The SM then lets the Advancement chair know what night the scout will do his board. The scout doesnt need to request a board, after all we chose to be there to serve the scout, not the other way around. It's a helpful, friendly, cooperative, kind of thing. So as I see it, it is covered in the Scout Law. But that's just me, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Region7, welcome to the campfire. If an Eagle Scout seeks donations as part of an eagle project he should do it in the name of the organization it is benefitting and not the scouting movement. it is not the scouting movement using or benefitting from the donation so to use the scouting image or name would be a misrepresentation. In the same way the charter organization can request donations but they should not use the name or image of the BSA when doing so. Bob White

Matua is correct. Local scout units are not to seek donations from individuals or from the business community. You may sell an approved product or service. Aproval comes from the Council executive or council finance committee upon review of a unit money-earning request. You can go to a lumber yard for instance and say, "we are a scout troop doing a lashing project, I need about 250ft of 1/4 manilla rope". If they offer you a discount or a donation of rope that is their free choice. What you cannot do is ask them for cash to do the project or to donate the rope. Why, because why yo might get $75 in rope for your troop, you might interfere with a $7500 donation that would help all the scouts in the council. You need a picture view of scouting when it comes to donations. As far as the Jamboree goes, your council has a jamboree committee and if you want a fundraiser to help get a scout or scouts to Jambo it needs to come from that committee. You need to talk with them. Bob White

PRELIMINARY REPORT Upon review of the scouting handbooks the Asst. Council Executive agrees that Ptrol camping without Adult supervision is indeed an activity supported by the BSA. He is going to consult with the camp ranger to make sure there are no administrative problems from a land use aspect. He expects to have a determination by Saturday. He thinks it is a great opportunity for the council to serve the units and wants to see us impliment the camp in this way. By the way, he said that in all his years as a professional, no patrol has ever asked to do this. See they really are on our side folks. Bob White

Mike due to length, i sent you a private message. BW

Fortunately Eagle90 it is nothing you have to sell. It is a patrol activity and patrols are run by boys. It's up to them to convince the parents, not us. If they can't, then there is nothing for you to do about it, other than to continue developing the skills of the scouts. The parents will say yes only when they see the ability in the scouts. By the way the program doesn't say send 11 or 12 year olds. It says that you should not approve the event unless you feel that the scouts have the skills and maturity to do it. Do not go by age, it's easy to under-estimate the ability of young scouts and over-estimate the abilities of older ones. Bob White PS, I have left a message for our Asst. Scout Executive regarding this.

OK EVERYONE>>>HOMEWORK TIME!! Let's all contact our council service center in the next 48 hours and report back to this thread. Perhaps we are all operating under a myth (and maybe I'm the guiltiest of all). Ask if your council allows patrols to camp at your camps without adult leadership as promised in the BSA handbooks. I suggest you do not talk to an office staffer but ask the Properties manager, scout executive or Asst scout executive. Dsteele if there is another position we should talk with let us know. Lets report back here as soon as we find an answer. Good Luck on your mission. Bob White

Mark, You transporting two boys, especially one who is your son, is not a violation of the YP policies although I would still try to avoid it whenever possible. You are not on a tripi or outing so two deep leadership is not required and you have two scouts so you have avoided one on one contact. As far as Dutch's situation....my suggestion is I would tell the SM that I was told that his taking a single scout in his car and going shopping is a violation of Youth Protection policies. I would then ask him if my information was correct. if he responds yes, inform him that you will accompany him to the store, and then call your council scout execuitve and report the Scoutmaster's actions. If he says no then tell him untill you get clarification you will accompany him and your son to he store. Then call your DE and get youth protection training for your lades and committee. Then the next time you hear of one-on-one contact call your scout executive. Bob White

I have had scouts as young as 13 camping without adults. They have used their own backyards, farmland, private camps, Chartered Organization property, County parks with two adults in an adjacent site. Bob White

I think think you local staff told you correctly, in your area (and I'm sure in a few others) the beads are made locally as part of a local tradiont. But overall in the US, I think you will find that the vast majority of beads come from BSA National Supply Division. Bob White