Bob White

The question NWscouter is not are the boys eligible. The question is were they prepared correctly and given a full Webelos experience or have they been raced through what is designed to be an 18-month to 2-year Webelos program. All scouting methods are suggestions, but it is those suggested elements that make it scouting. The goal of cubscouting is not just to go to Boy Scouts. There are skills and abilities that Webelos is designed to develop in the Cubs before they crossover. To hurry them through is not providing the prograsm they need of deserve. It is the responsibility of the leader to follow the program that the BSA has developed, and to give the scouts all the opportunities available in Webelos that they deserve. Sender would do well to relax the pace and work with the scouts on the Compass points, outdoor skills and planning skills and cross them over closer to February. Sending them to the troop too early in their development is NOT a recipe for their success. Bob White

It's really not a matter of fairness. it's not like the new handbook is more difficult it is just different. You should have no difficulty using both books at the same time and just have the boys do what is in their own handbook. The other option is to do as twocubdad suggested and reproduce the requirements from the older book and give the scouts with the new book a set of the older requirements to follow. But don't fret the fairness thing it's not unfair to do whats in your own book and scout advancement has never been about doing what the other guy is doing or doing it the same. Bob White

The PlC should consider the events offered by the District and Council, but it is their decision. Adults can force them to put in on the calendar but that won't make the scouts go. The scouts need to be able to choose their activities if you want them to participate. bob White

Sender, If we could talk face to face I could be more delicate wit this, but forums do not lend themselves to casual counseling so I will get right to the point. If you look at the Webelos Leader Handbook, pages 8 and 9, the advancement plan shows that for a Fourth Grader entering the Webelos Den in June will not be eligible to cross over until January of the next year. In your case of starting in May they would not be eligible based on achievements until December of 2004. What they should be earning this January is their Webelos badge. The question here is not are the boys eligible. The question is why did you not follow the Webelos program? You are rushing these scouts through and past achievments that will better prepare them for a comfortable transition into Boy Scouting. It is not to late to get back on track and follow the program for the benefit of the development of the boys in the Den. This is not a race you get no extra points for finishing first. Get trained, get a Webelos leader Handbook, follow the advancement agenda, take the time needed to get the boys ready to cross over successfully. I hope give this serious consideration, Bob White

SPL t-15, I really can't explain how you should do things because quite honestly your troop is doing some rather unique things. I can explain how the program would relate to some of things your're experiencing. If you recall from Cub Scouts the term AKELA. it refered to the adults around you who were all your leaders in one way or another. Parents, teacher scout leaders, ministers, law enforcement officers, relatives, are all Akelas. In cub scouts we begin teaching you that as a youth you 'follow Akela' because they are there to help you grow and develop. You still have Akelas in your life, and they still include the adults in your unit. Whether you take their advice is one thing, but they all deserve your courtesy and consideration. The Scouting program does not place any committee members any higher than another, except for the Committee Chairperson. So this woman is no greater or lesser person in your troop regardless of her position of responsibility. If your troop allows adults on the committee without registering them, then they are doing those people a great injustice. They are exposing those parents to possible litigation without the benefit of liability insurance given to every registered adult. But as a youth in the program your closest adult resources are your parents and your Scoutmaster. I cannot state strongly enough that these adult resources need to be called upon at this point. You and the other junior leaders should not be dealing with a disruptive adult. This is beyond you level of responsibility and authority regardless of whatever artificial rules you try to inpose or whatever justification you believe you have. If these adult leaders are unwilling to resolve this situation either with the woman, or with you and the other junior leaders then they are being derelict in their responsibilities (It doesn't matter how cool you think they are). Run do not walk to another unit where the leadership understands their reponsibilities because such apathy could result in a youth being injured. I appreciate your frustration over this incident but this is not what you are supposed to be doing as a scout and you need to stay out of it. Bob White

The By-Laws of the BSA have nothing, zip, zero, nada, to do with the methods, or policies, of unit operation. If you were to take any of the unit level scout leader training courses the ONLY aspect of the By-laws that are even discussed is the charter organization concept and the role of the COR as a voting member of the District and Council. Why is nothing else discussed. Becauise they are secrets that if let out to mere volunteers would bring about the end of civilization as you imagine it? No. Because it has no relevance to unit operation. The by-laws are legal requirements to establish the BSA and the inter-related Councils as non-profit organizations. If you are legally responsible for the operation of a council you need to know this information. Council Scout Executives, Council Presidents, need access to By-laws, DE's and District Chairs who to operate legal elections of officers, need access to by-laws. A unit leader needs to know how to deliver the program to youth. There is nothing about that in the By-laws. "And we've all been told how the pros "guide" the volunteers." No you haven't. You have been told that each committee is has a professional advisor. You honestly haven't the slightest notion what they do. You help guide a scout troop. If you believe that "guiding" means "controls them and tells them what to do", then no amount of by-laws or rules you are exposed to will make you a good scout leader. Rather than rant about aspects of scouting that you have never participated, in or took the time to learn about, you could be using the resources of scouting to ask questions and develop yourself as a leader or resource. Instead you have chosen to develop unsupported opinions and blurt them out as facts, even when at times you know they are false in order to inflame conversations and mislead well intentioned volunteers who participate in this forum. An unfortunate choice. Bob White

With professionals I consider anything they do beyond the Job expectations they are paid to do as "going the extra mile". Professional scouting, especially at the entry level of DE, is a challenging profession. My base expectation is that they do the job they were hired to do, grow youth and adult membership, spread the program by finding new charter organizations, make sure the council is financial prepared for the future program needs. Anything they do beyond that is just icing on the cake. My personal opinion, as far as program quality..that's our job as volunteers. We are the providers of the program not the professional staff. If you want a better program for scouts than become a better leader. Scouts do not care about the administartion of a council, they care about their next meeting, and we have complete control over that not the pros. Bob White

SPL T-15, When the requirements say that they must be done as a Venturing scout they mean that work done prior to joining Venturing cannot be used. Any work you do as a registered member of both a troop and crew can be used for both IF the work meets the requirements of both. Any work done as just a registered Venturing scout can be used toward advancemnt in both programs IF at the time you joined Venturing you had achieved at minimum the rank of First Class at some time in a Boy Scout troop. Bob White

WARNING! Some posters hear are really twisting the truth, or perhaps just prefering to not learn it. The resources of the BSA may be printed in Texas, but remember that they are written by committees made up of BSA volunteer members from across the country. To think that pros sit in offices in Irving and write this stuff themselves, shows a total lack of knowledge of the process they sit here and condemn. To think that the rules of the BSA is a secret is silly. To think that the BSA By-Laws have anything to do with unit operation is just plain wrong. Are you interested in organizing a District or Council? Then go to your Scout Service Center and look at the BSA By-Laws that establish the council as a non-profit corporation. Hey, you want to see a building permit you go look at it at City Hall right? But for cryin out loud, the same folks whining that they want to see the by-laws don't even look at the Scout Handbook or the Scoutmaster Handbook. Why do they want to know how a council operates when they don't want to know how a troop operates? And what is so unusual about the BSA writing the rules of the BSA program? The Girls Scouts write the Rules for the Girl Scout program. My company writes the rules for its employees. My State and local government write the rules for my state and town. If the BSA isn't going to set the rules for the BSA then who should? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I don't have the time nor the money to collect ALL of the references." Lets look at the myriad of resouce materials a Boy Scout unit needs to have on hand in order to have all the methods, polices and procedures at their fingertips. A Boy Scout Handbook $7.95 A Scoutmaster Handbook $10.95 A Troop Committee Guidebook $4.70 A Uniform Insignia Guide $3.95 An Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual $4.40 *A Guide to safe Scouting $0.00 *(available on line) Now lets presume that no scoutmaster would be serving without a Boy Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster Handbook, and that if a committee expected every boy to have a handbook then the committee would certainly have at least one of their own guidebooks. The total outlay for ALL those additional reference books is...... $8.35. So if money is keeping you from owning the reference materials of scouting try selling an extra 2 boxes of micro-wave popcorn. As far as why over a million adult volunteers do not have access to Scout-net, it is because you child's adress and phone number, along with the address and phone number of over 5-million other children are available there, and not every charter organization pays close enough attention as to who they allow near our kids. Will other publications become available on line, certainly. We see more materials get on line every year. "All the answers are a few mouse clicks away. Too bad it's not "official". Thats not true at all. All the personal opinions you want are a few clicks away. All the answers you want are in a few resource manuals of the BSA. The problem is not every one wants to follow the official scouting program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I can't believe I'm up this late, but The Producers was on TV and it's one of my favorite movies. I meant to say that I have only had that kind of event happen once. Yes, I see unit rules as artificial. They are unnatural controls that obstruct the natural operation of the scouting program. Back to the question...If you could deliver a quality scouting program without all these unit made rules (as lots of units do) why wouldn't you want to? Good Night, Bob White

I don't know. In all the years I have been scouting I have only had an event like that take place. it was dealt with according to the safety regulations of the G2SS. I guess rather than spend time creating rules trying to prevent some behaviors I have focused on delivering a program where that behavior wasn't considered by the scouts. So far it has worked just fine. What interests me is that you seem less interested in wanting to have a program where all these artificial rules are unnecessary and more interested in trying to find fault with simply delivery the program as it is designed. Why is that? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

My point exactly twocubdad. The rules needed for a scouting program already exist within the scouting program. There is no need for units to create additional ones, when following the BSA program would be more than sufficient. Bob White

I know we are straying a little but I think this is an important point to share and I will bring us back to the topic of the thread at the end. I think Ed you have a fairly common skeptical attitude among some scout leaders that "since the BSA has no attendance requirements a Scout can show up whenever he needs to". I think that you are missing the beauty of a well planned scout program, "the BSA has no attendance requirements so a Scout will show up whenever he wants to. A good scouting program makes a boy want to come to meetings. Poor attendance is not a problem, it is a symptom. The problem, when you have poor attendance, is a weak troop program, and no amount of rule making will fix that. Which brings us back to the topic of the thread. The need for artificial unit rules. If you deliver the scouting program as it has been developed then the only rule you need is "we will operate according to the BSA program". I(f you cannot lead the scouts to the expected behavior then no amount of unit rules will drive them there, you will only drive them away, and drive you further from the methods of scouting. Happy Scouting, Bob White

SPL, You are using terms we are not familiar with. What is a Leaders council in a troop if it is not a Patrol Leaders Council? There are no Venturers in a troop, there are Boys Scouts. Venturers are in a Crew whic is not a patrol in atroop but is a totally separte unit holding its own separate Charter. So what exactly are you? What is your Role in the Troop. If this wasn't a troop PLC what was it? Confused, Bob White

SPL t-15 Let's hope you are in a Venturing Crew not a Venture "patrol". Venture Patrols follow the Boy Scout advancement program. Only Venturing Crew members are eligible for the Venturing advancement awards. Bob White

The troop operates on a budget based on popcorn sales. Scouts and parent are shown a budget based on the activities that have been decided don during the annual planning. Scouts are all asked to achieve a determined minimum sales, or to support the troop by an amount equal to the profits that would have been achieved by the minimum sales of popcorn. No family is forced to pay anything. Not all families can, we let them know how much the troop spends and ask them to carry their share if they can. Is it a rule, no, because there is no punishment if they do not pay. It's a request. If we did our job in planning and presenting an exciting program and a reasonable budget then we have no problems raising the money we need. Thanks for asking, Bob White

I have no idea how you leaped to such an unusual assumption Ed? But the scenario you suggest is all fiction with no fact. I do not believe any scout in a troop I served showed up at troop meetings in order to advance. They showed up because the troop meetings are fun and it's a place they want to be. By participating in an active planned program they found themselves advancing as they put to use the things they learned during the activities. When you have a position of responsibility (either by open election or selection by the PL or SPL) you are continually trained and developed in how to do the job successfully. You come to the troop meetings, not because of some artificial rule that was created to force you to be there, but because you understand and accept your importance to the success of the troop or patrol, and because you have fun. You might achieve Eagle if that is a goal you set for yourself and work toward achieving. But if you expect to get it because you think that the troop meetings are supposed to be merit badge classes and that the purpose of scouting is to churn out eagle Scouts. Than you had best join another troop, because that's not scouting and we don't do things that way. Perhaps you know of a troop better suited to that goal Ed? Happy Scouting, Bob White

The only rules the troop has those set by the BSA. From that base we teach the Scouts and Scout leaders to make "ethical decisions based on the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law". It only makes sense to use the mission of scouting to deliver scouting. Rules are made to control behavior. Scouting teaches behavior based on positive constructive values. As a scout leader you are not asked or expected to create rules. You are asked and expected to use the methods of scouting to teach the scouting values. If we do our job, we do not need other rules. Happy Scouting, Bob White

We expect the scouts to be trustworthy and follow the safety techniques we share with them and not misuse tools. Every camping tool is a compromise on what would do the job the best as compared to what will get the job done effectively and be lightweight and compact. We do not need artificial rules to provide a good scouting program, we need adult leaders who understand and use the scouting program. bob White

More artificial unit rules. The scouting program uses the methods of scouting to reach the aims of scouting. The methods are tools for the adults to use. They are the things we do "with the scouts" not "to the scouts". I cannopt think of any scouting methods that are covered by the Scout Law. To take "methods" and convert them to unit rules is a misuse of the program by the unit leaders. And scout leaders should be "Trustworthy" and "Obedient" and follow the scouting program as they agreed to.

A scout iS Trustworthy Excerpted from the Guide to Safe Scouting. "A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. Rememberknives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft. References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Cub Scout Book, and Wolf Cub Scout Book" The BSA does not require the prohibition of sheath knives and acknowledges that while unecessary for most camp chores it does not say all camp chores. The BSA program has always taught scouts to use the right tool for the right job. The BSA program gives the scout leader the responsibility to see that the scouts have the needed training to understand what the right tool is and how it can be used safely. A Scout is Helpful Rather than create artificial rules, the Unit Leader could fulfill their role as teacher and guide by seeing that scouts have the proper instruction in the use and safe handling of knives and other camp tools. Bob White

Sender, how long have they been in the Webelos program? Bob White

SPLt-15, You will not find a tool to control a rude adult in any scout handbook. You will only find how you can respond. Here are some suggestions. The troop (unlike a patrol which has no adult oficers) has an adult in charge of the program, the Scoutmaster. The troop leadership should not be meeting without the SM present. So to avoid a confrontation, do not gather until the SM is there. Next if she should confront you, listen politely to everything she has to say, then thank her for your input and for her concern, and then go on with your meeting. Just because she says something it does not require you to act on it. Be friendly, be courteous, be cheerful, and go on with your responsibilities. It is not your responsibility to control adults. Your job is to help the other junior leaders work together and be successful. Your Scoutmaster needs to control the program. That's his/her job, you need to stay removed from this adult conflict. Your Scoutmaster, if trained, knows that there is only one adult who should interact at a Patrol Leaders Council and that one adult is the Scoutmaster. Your Scoutmaster needs to stand-up for himself or herself, you cannot do that for them. Good Luck, Bob White

Nowhere in the syllabus of the Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader specific Training syllabus that I am aware of. I cannot think of anywhere in any "Boy Scout" resouce either. I only know of that in the Cub Scout program resources. You will find that instruction in at least two places in the Cub Scout Leaders Handbook. Why in one and not the other? Different programs, diferent scouting divisions, different authors. Tip to trainers; give resource references when you answer questions and stick to the syllabus as closely as possible.