Bob White

Barry, I have a question. You do not see scouting as a one shape fits all program, and by the way scouting agrees. Yet, you say that one shape of patrol works for all scouts? Scouting one the other hand says that three different shapes of patrols works best to better serve the different shape of boys at different stages of development. Who is walking the talk, you, or scouting? You see separate patrols as high maintenance. Can establishing and developing the character of a random ever-changing group of youth ever be low maintenance? Good scout leadership is often low profile but seldom low maintenance. Perhaps Scotts is not the only one who could consider being open to change? Bob White

I think she might be wondering why the Scoutmaster is not talking to the scouts before she does. I have no way of knowing. We have only one side of the story. I'm not saying she's right, but it is possible that she is not completely wrong in her criticisms. I'm asking that they all sit down and hear each other out. What is the harm in that? Question for scouter659 and the SM. Before we insist that she go get trained.. what training have you and the SM had? Just curious. One more point, Scouter659 says this boy lives with mom and is a single parent family. We have all seen this situation mess a kid up pretty badly. But scouter stresses what a good kid this is. Let's give mom some credit here. She obviously has some idea about leadership. I think you need to hear her out. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"They'd say, "Bob White says that we shouldn't run in camp." That's a suggestion from an authority figure which translates into a rule. So is the thread about having leader guidance or having troop rules? You keep changing the premise. First the scouts would not say I told them what to do, because I don't tell them. I ask them questions and they tell me. Actually I ask the junior leaders. By the time they come to a troop at about 10 1/2 they know right from wrong in most cases. We teach them how to identify why things are right or wrong and how to use that to develop a character base. It's a process that takes years, but it's not years of following rules, it's years of learning to make decisions. If you rely on unit rules to get the results you want from scouting you will never develop leaders, only followers. They will be unable to formulate a decision without someone or something to tell them what to do, or how to do it. Instead of telling them what to do, try scouting. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm going to ask you to step back and take a differnent view at this. What if mom is right? It sounds like she is concerned about the activities during the meeting. For instance, how is it she is witnessing scouts making off color remarks and the unit leaders are not? What specific criticizms does she have, are they in fact valid. Are you doing enough tent camping? What national policy says a scout cannot tent alone? Try looking at the unit from her side. Is the real problem the troop operations or the fact that she sees the problem and voices her concern. It's not unusual to want to slay the messenger when you do not like the message. Self-evaluation is sometimes painful, but often brings growth. I would sit down with her and calmly listen to all her issues. Ask yourself honestly if any are valid and then make the needed changes. If she has misjudged the troops actions, explain to her how and why things are done the way they are. Support your methods with BSA documentation. I wold be willing to bet that there is some truth to be found in both points of view. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Perhaps you are blessed with a truly unusual bunch of boys. But theres no way in **** that youre going to convince me that your troops implementation of the Scouting program permits your troop to function without any other additional rules." aactually I have had dozens of groups of great kids. I can't image how anyone could do this work for 27 years and have only one group. The troops and packs I have served have changed each year as new scouts come in and older ones graduate. All have been great. Some started great others became great as they progrssed. We are there to make that happen. It is not pollyanna it is scouting. There is reason and pupose to the program. It is designed to accomplish the things I and others have talked about. We build a moral conscience in youth, the inner voice. We do not do it through rules we do it through methods and rule making is not a scout method or skill. Many posters seem to use rules to substitute for leadership. Rooster I have been a unit leader in 4 troops and 2 packs (due to job transfers) NONE used any rules outside those defined in the scouting program. No one to this point has yet given any evidence as to one we need. If you want to control a scouts behavior, forget about making new rules, teach scouting! Bob White A question for rooster ed and some others who believe unit rules are needed. Rather than tell those of us who deliver scouting without a bunch of extra rules that it's impossible, why aren't you asking how to make it possible in the units you serve? Wouldn't you rather be able to get the results of scouting without all kinds of unit rules (This message has been edited by Bob White)

My thanks and appreciation to all veterans for the service and sacrifices each made in their own way to our country. Grandfather, father, brother, nephew, all sailors. Anchors Away, Bob White

When did I say that a unit had no rules? How often did I say that the only rules needed are already in the scouting program? We have proved that sccouting works, and additional unit rules are unnecessary, you just need to use the scouting program. We do not have a rule not to run in camp, we have an agreed up decision that running in camp is dangerous and can brake things. Scouts refrain from running not because of a rule but because each scout has made an ethical decision based on the values of the Oath and Law. I do not volunteer time to make and enforce rules. I am here, like most scout leaders, to teach character through the methods of scouting. We are not hall monitors. Bob White

Post the specific requirement you believe it fulfills.

A picture may be worth a thousand words but it isn't a thousand words. Don't try to deliver a scouting program just by looking at all the pretty pictures in the book. There is a reason that they surrounded them with bunches of words. Bob White

"I don't see how this could fall under the Scout Law." The way I explain it to the scouts is, a campsite is your home, The tents are your bedroom, the latrine your bathroom, the cook area your kitchen, where you eat is your dining room, the paths are your hallways, and the area in the center your living room. The behavior that applies in your home applies here at camp as well. We then go room by room and I have the scouts tell me what their parents have taught them at home for that area. when we get to the living room someone always says "No Running"! We all have a good laugh and then talk about why. It always comes down to two things, someone will get hurt, or something will get broken. So we talk about those things. In very short order the scouts "get it" and if someone starts to run we will here another scout shout "hey! No running in the house". No written rules, we talk, we c o m m u n i c a t e with scouts. We respect them, they respect us. A Scout is Trustworthy, A Scout is Courteous. By the way Adrianvs, the adults do not run in the campsite either:). Bob White

"Perhaps many of these would be avoidable if the rules were above all individual members and all were subject to them." I am unclear about what you mean by this. Could you site an example? BW

Clear and copious is the sign of a healthy hiker.

I would begin by sitting down with the scoutmaster NAD the Scoutmaster Handbook. I'm hopefull your SM is trained and understands the purpose of the ptrol types. If not you may have to do some counseling. Then as the ASM be willing to supervise and take responsibility for on of the three Patrol types. Good Luck, You are doing the right thing. Bob White

"Hopefully he will relate it to the Scout Oath & Law." It is unfortunate that a leader with your tenure has relied on hope and rules as you run your scout troop. Far more leaders I have met use trust, and scout methods, to insure a scouts opportunities to experience and absorb the values of scouting in the units they serve. I urge all the leaders who have followed this thread to compare your unit rules to the program methods, procedure recommendations and policies of the BSA. Decide if your unit rules are needed, or are they in conflict with or repetitions of the rules of scouting. Units across the country deliver terrific scouting programs using only scouting methods, why can't the unit you serve be one of them? Bob White

"What part of the Scout law would prevent a Scout from running?" I would hope none of them. I don't want scouts to stop running. I want them to make good decisions about when and where to run. Rules do not teach character. Character comes from the ability to make good decisions. That comes from a value base and not from rules. Before a scout decides to run in camp I want an inner voice to say "is this helpful to others? Is this courteous? Is this being trustworthy?". I trust that a scout will learn to make the right decision if he receives a real scout program, based on teaching inner values not artificial rules. Bob White

"Should all possible disrespectful behaviors be listed in some troop policy?" "A Scout is Courteous" Seems to me there already is a rule. Bob White

Rooster, take a deep breathe. No one has said there shouldn't be rules. The question is whether there is need for the unit to create rules in addition to those in scouting in order to have a successful scouting program. My experience says no.

Beaver, with all due respect, please tell me you do not have a written troop rule that says "scouts will not throw rocks". Bob White

"I might be wrong but the Troop Committee doesn't approve events the PLC decides to do." You are correct Ed, you are wrong about that:). The troop committee should indeed approve the events the troop PLC chooses to do. They have a responsibility to insure the event is within the rules and policies of the program, reflective of the charter organization, and that safety concerns have been addressed. What the committee should not do is choose the event, that is the PLCs job. Bob White

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Ed I hate to be the one to break this to you, but she changed because she got caught. Had she not gotten the ticket, or even seen the police officer, would she have changed? The traffic signs were up the day she got ticketed weren't they? Did knowing the rule make her follow the rule? Evidently not! The Scouts are running behind your back because the only thing that stops them is "the rule" and when the rule isn't in their mind, they break it. But had they been taught the meaning of the Scout Law, had the "character" of a scout been the lesson, and not the "Rule of the troop", then the running behind your back would stop. Because character controls our decisions, rules tell us our boundaries before we get punished. Less rule making and more character building is what following the scouting program can do. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"They will throw things and they will run. To get them to stop, we have to make rules, repeatedly remind them of the rules and sometimes enforce them." I too see things from both sides. Here is how I see the other side of this statement. You haven't taught the scouts not to run or throw things. You have taught them not to run or throw things in front of you. Character and values change behavior. Rules remind you that there is punishment if caught. Think of all the adults you know who are perfectly comfortable driving 5 to 10 miles over the posted speed limit, UNLESS there is a police car in view. These drivers (and there are alot of them) do not care about the law, they care about not getting caught breaking the law. There is no rule in scouting that says "do not run in camp". There is however a Scout Law that says a scout is courteous. Not running in camp respects the safety of others and of other's property, it is the courteous thing to do. Teach scouts that Courtesy is an important characteristic and you do not need to have a rule about running in camp. You only need to explain that it is the wrong way to behave. Think of the lives that would be saved every day if more drivers had the character of courtesy and drove with respect for the safety of others and their property, rather than with concern only for there own needs and for not getting caught. Character changes behavior not rules. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am in no way suggesting that there should not be rules and guidelines. My point is that they already exist for all units. Rather than create its own rules, units should be sharing and following the rules of the BSA. Laurie, As I related before the only part of the By-laws that affect you are the parts shared with you in your New Leader Essentials Training, That the Charter organization owns the unit and contracts each year with the BSA to use and follow the scouting program. Also that your COR is a voting member of the District and Council committees. Bob White

Props to cubsRgr8, and SM Ron, When you look at the Scoutmaster Handbook you will see that the definition of a Patrol is a group of scouts of the same age and skill level. It then recommends that three patrol types are best; New Scout, Regular, and Venture. The make up of each is dependent on age and skill level. There are only two times the scouting program recommends NOT using the New Scout Patrol. First if the troop is too small to do it effectively (less than 12 scouts). secondly, if the scouts are from the same immediate neighborhood and would make a strong patrol by virtue of their proximity. You will find that the results of the NSP program far outperforms mixed age patrols in almost every case. Keep them in a New Scout Patrol program with a Troop Guide and an assigned Assistant Scoutmaster until First Class rank is achieved. See the Scoutmaster Handbook for more info on that. A poster or two will probably come on board to say the The NSP is an option, a recommendation, NOT something you have to do. This is true. But why choose not to do what the BSA has developed as a very succesful program simply because it is recommended and not mandatory. None of the methods of scouting are mandatory, but it is in using these methods that we deliver the scouting program and all of its benefits. Your decision following training to establish a New Scout Patrol program is a good one and shows that you are developing as a leader, and as a provider of good scouting to your community. Stay your course. I would also recommend, that with ten new Scouts, you have 2 New Scout patrols, each with its own Troop Guide and put them both under the guidance of the same Assistant Scoutmaster. Happy Scouting, Bob White

That's the spirit Ed! What you would find is a program that made you want to be at all the meetings and outings, not because some rule made you come, but because you enjoyed it so much you wanted to come. It's the Scouting difference, and it works. To have to create rules to get scouts to come to meetings is like tying a bone around your neck to get the dog to play with you. Sure it usually works, but it is a pitiful thing to watch. Instead of making up rules, try Scouting. Bob White