Bob White

I support the two-person limit in tents except for winter camping. When we will allow the occupoancy limit of the tent. The reason is noise control. In the more comfortable weather I have noticed that scouts get more rest with two scouts to a tent. Once the fiorst scout falls asleep the other soon follows. But, with three or more in the tent as long as two are awake the conversation continues. I make the exception in winter becomes of the shared warmth factor. As far as whose tent we use, We have enough troop tents for the Scout members, but we do not discourage scouts from bringing personal equipment, as long as they take responsibility for it's care and stick to the occupancy guidelines. I just don't see it as that big a deal. Bob White

So....Committeechair...How is the quality of the troop's program doing? Bob White

I don't know yet, I haven't had a chance to talk to the scout. I will not evaluate the scout until I talk to him. Would you? Bob White

Ed I think you are misunderstanding my post. Your comment was "I am sure some districts & councils require the Eagle candidate to be in full uniform for his BOR." My point, is that to do so would be a violation of BSA advancement policies. Since the Handbook does not require a full uniform then the District or Council cannot require one. The scout is only required to wear as correct and complete a uniform as he can. You wanted to know if I expected to see a candidate in full uniform for an Eagle Borad. All I expect is to see a boy who has completed the eagle requirements and can show that he uses the values of scouting in his everyday life. I enjoy seeing a full, correct uniform, but I do not "expect" to see it. Bob White

It's not really two additional, it's just two. You cannot have a committee of one. The BSA has determined the minimal number of adult leaders in order for a unit charter to be valid. The requirements are different for troops, packs and crews. One element that is the same among all three is the make-up of an adult committee. The BSA requires that for a charter to be in force the unit must have a committee chairperson and at least two committee members. From the advancement side, Board of Reviews are required to be conducted by a board made of troop committee members. There is a minimum of three set for the Boards. That makes boards workable for any size troop. Eagle Scout Boards are the only exception. I hope this answers your question. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What did I expect? I expected the BOR to follow the policies and guidelines set by the BSA for an Eagle Board. I do not anticipate what the scout wil wear, but I do notice. You are arguing in support of my point Ed. Since the BSA does not require a uniform, a unit, district, or council cannot require a scout be in full uniform for a BOR. I believe you will find the reference in the section on Eagle Scout BOR in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. I do not have the book with me or I would supply the page#.

Sorry Acco, but I'm 99.99% sure that the Advancemnt Policies and Procedures manual calls for Troop Committee members for all the ranks through Life Scout. Only the Eagle boards can have others on it. Since all units must have a Committee chair and two committee members there is no reason why a any unit, regardless of size, would not be able to meet this requirement. Bob

The Advancement Policies require that the scout were as complete a uniform as he can when at a BOR. What you prefer has nothing to do with what the BSA requires or what you must accept. Those are the rules already existing in the BSA. Bob White

I think we both agree Beaver that to lead you have to learn the skills of leadership. But that was not the context of the post. The poster was suggesting that before you could be a leader of a group you had to be to have been a follower in the group. I don't see that as a requirement to learn leadership skills. But I agree with what you say. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I know how you feel Eamonn, I was sorry to here when my troop collapsed back in the 8O's it had been continually chartered for over 60 years. it was tough to say good bye. BW

"But if one can't follow effectivly, how can you be an one lead effectivly?" I am curious about the logic of this statement. I cannot think of any other proficiency where this correlation exists. Does a Quarter back first have to be a good a good reciever? Does a hunter have to first be a good target? Does a lawyer first have to be a good criminal? OKAY, never mind that last one. Why does a leader first have to be a good folower. Where does it say or whaere has it been proven so? My training and experience says that a good leader needs good leadership skills and needs to understand the people he is leading. But I know of no evidence that says he or she must first have learned to be a follower. "The goal of good leadership is not to create followers, but rather more leaders." (Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower) He who seeks to lead, should not cease to learn. (Trainer Development/BSA 500) Bob White

"And thanks for addressing both rules I posted." Actually Ed, it appears you posted three not two and I responded to all three. I was not belittling them simply demonstrating that they validated the point I was making. Troop rules tend to be repetitive of BSA rules, conflicting to BSA rules or uneeded. The conditions you sited happened to meet all three conditions. Physical violence and harrassment is covered already in the G2SS. Communicating between leaders is a leadership skill the SM is supposed to be teachin junior leaders through training courese and ghuidance not relying on a rule to do their work. Requiring uniforms for BORs as you yourself pointed out is in conflict with the requirements of the BSA. That being the case you cannot require them either. Please do not make this thread another tug of war. disagree with my points if you wish, but please curb your personal attacks. Bob White

"I have not been trained in these matters. This is just my opinion" Think about that Proud Eagle. Wouldn't it a good idea to get some facts prior to forming an opion? It's fine to have an opinion, but without some some background information as a base how can you build an opinion on top of it? The troop is not a business, its a club. The committee does not approve tour permits. The tour leader and any committee member sign it. The only adult registration available within a uinit is as COR,a SM or ASM, A Committee chair and a committee member. The program has already determined that the committee is made of the CC and at least two committee members. So you see the program has already determined who is on the committee. Take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the unit operation and you will find that most of your concerna are already addressed by the BSA program, units simply need to get trainined and follow the program. Bob White

Committee members can and often do were uniforms, so to say uniformed leaders have no vote is incorrect. The troop committee is made of committee members and not Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters. The line you posted "The Scoutmaster (ergo, Assistant Scout Masters) is not actually a member of the troop committee, and has no vote." is the only place that the word vote is used in the Committee handbook. The istructions are that the Committee chair gives assignment to the committee members and they report their progress at the committee meetings. There is nothing in the souting program that suggests a troop committee operates by a majority vote.

When various meetings are held is program planning, rules about hitting and other abusive behavior are already covered in G2SS (a scout is Friendly), requiring a full uniform for the BOR is a violation of advancement regulations. Communicating among leaders is covered in leadership training, if you were to fulfill the SM responsibility to train junior leaders they would not those rules. Teach the program don't make more rules.

OGE, I used the recorder from Creative, Sound Blaster, and was able to convert to a .wav file. I PM'd you specific instructions. Bob

OOps you are right it is an Eagle requirement too. Sorry, the answer is still no.

OGE go to your start menu-accessories and look for the sound recorder. You should be able to play the RealPlayer file and record it on the sound recorder which will save it as a .wav file. Bob

"It doesn't really matter what you call it. Whether it's a mission or a goal, my point remains the same. The boys don't start off from day one in a troop living the Scout Oath and Law as if its ingrained in their very being And you come around now to my very point. This is why we are here as scout leaders. To use the methods of scouting to to ingrain the values, NOT to write superficial rules. And you know which remarks, when you or the other couple Post them. Scouts are not the only ones with a conscience. My remarks were not directed at a specific individual but were in response to your question. I did not have anyone shout to a runner to stop. The scout, knowing what he was seeing was unsafe, did it on his own. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You didn't post the entire requirement captain ron (a scout is trustworthy). By the way it is a requirement on the way to Star or Life, not Eagle, isn't it? It lists specific positions in a scout unit OR a special project assigned by the Scoutmaster to benefit the scout unit. Now ask yourself what part of this requirement is satisfied by your serving in a post for another organization, and I think you will discover the correct answer. But I think you honestly knew that before you asked. Bob White

Always good to talk to another Bobwhite. Please do not misunderstand my questions I am not assuming guilt on anyones part, but out of fairness, there is only one point of view being represented and I feel the entire situation cannot be understood unless someone tries to understand or at least represent what could be concerns of the other party. I have been involved in several such squabbles as a unit commissioner and as a district commissioner. Rarely is the unit completely without responsibiliy. A few more clarifications. With all that Wood Badge talent on hand, what has been done to counsel mom other than a letter suggesting she leave? If you put yourself in moms shoes, why do you suppose she is dissatisfied with the troop? If this is such a great kid, how bad could mom really be? What specifically are some of moms complaints. While I agree that in cold whether having a buddy is a good safety practice, I am pretty sure you will find nothing in the policies of the BSA regarding that issue. Bob White

Your points are well taken but have a major error. In the example I gave the troop never made a rule. We in fact have no rule about running in camp. We have an understanding among the scouts that they themselves discovered that running in camp is a bad idea. I have never seen a scout in the troop punished for running in camp. I have seen eqipment damaged and the scout who ran in camp and caused the damage charged for the repair or replacemment. We have had a couple trip and fall, but that could have happened anywhere. They don't run becasue they each determined it to be a bad idea. When someone chooses to run they also consciously choose to accept the consequences (just as the speeding driver does). So the individual scout controls the running not "the troop". If was authority bsed they would run like banshees as soon as the authority figure was gone. The choose not to run becasuse they made the desicion based on values. This is what makes Patrol camping possible. By training the scouts to make value based decisions they can be trusted independent of adult leadership. Leaders with lots of rules do not want independent scouts. They want to be the authority figure that everying is dependent on. Bob White

There is no registration fee for MB counselors.

Rooster, I invite you to go back and read the thread again. You have misrepresented much of what I have written. I never said rules were not needed. I maintain that the rules you need for scouting have already been written by the BSA. A unit has no real need for written unit rules IF they know the scouting rules and methods. Do I think the better a leader understands scouting the more they will see that other rules are unneeded. Yes. My response about "an unusual group" was not about the word "unusual" but the sigular word group. I, like other leaders have worked with a different "group" each year, and We have not had the need for additional rules for any of them. That was my only point. Being able to make decisions based on the values of the Oath and Law is not the goal of Scouting, it is the Mission. A goal is what you want to accomplish. A mission is a purpose to exist. I would hope that you approach your mission in life differently than you approach your goals. You plan to accomplish a goal. You live your mission. We want scouts to live the mission. That is not accomplished through rules, it's done through the methods of scouting. This is not pollyanna, this is the whole point of the scouting program. It is a unique education system, but it is a system. it has several interelated parts. You change a part and you effect the entire system. No one has yet to give a needed troop rule beyond those already existing or dealt with through the methods of scouting. Even Hunts effort misses the mark. for the Church to say "don't use our closet" is the church's rule, not the troop's. You say "The need that youve apparently have never witnessed before, is to address a bunch of boys whod rather have fun, which includes (on many occasions) not thinking about others before they act." There in is the elegance of scout leadership and the reason we see this differently. You are trying to address a entire bunch, and the scouting program says you address the individual scout. You don't teach groups to think or change, you lead individuals to change. Do I think everyone on the forum are a bunch of lousy leaders? Absolutley not! I think there are many flavors here. There are a number who know and use the program. There are those who are new and looking for help. There are those well on the way and looking to sharpen thier tools. But there are a few, who have done it wrong for so long that they think they are right. They are those who admit to not using the elemnets of scouting as they have been developed and then complain that the program does not work. How would they know if it works or not if they do not use it? They also tend to right an awful lot of rules. Bob White I hope future posts can address the discussion without further snide remarkes about me personally.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry I was on the run, it's fixed now. I agree, but where was the troop leadership at the time these incidents were happening. How is it that she is seeing these things and they are not? Your demand that she sign-up and get trained or get out is unusual to say the least. As a leader you are entrusted with her child. As a Parent she has every right to expect as good job from you as she is doing herself, and has a right to voice her concerns. Funny that you demanded she get trained before you asked if the troop leadership was. Bob