Bob White

BuffaloSkipper writes "according to the TLT, it is the SPLs job to conduct the PL training." I don't think it says that Buffalo. It says thet the SPL "works with the Scoutmaster" in training youth leaders. The program does not expect the SPL to be able to do it himself or to have to do it himself. It requires you to develop the SPL and for him to help you in training others. Your second concern was "To our "veteran" (adult) leaders, I have suggested things like Patrol-cars, and genuine patrol food shoping" Why are you suggesting it to ASMs? Their role is to support you. Your role is to train junior leaders. the patrols role is to act as independent teams. Don't spend time making suggestions on patrol function to the AMS. Instead focus on training the junior leaders to be able to camp independently, shop independently, etc. etc.. No suggesting to ASMs...train the junior leaders, then give them the opportunity to practice and apply those skills. This is not something you need permission from the ASMs to do. Instead assign the ASMs to tasks that will help the patrols to learn, practice and apply these skills under youth leadership.

Perhaps I was unclear, allow me to try again. For those of us who have three or four beads already. How will this additional use of the recognition negatively effect our lives? How does it effect the work we did to earn the beads or the knowledge and skills we learned in the process? For Scouters who have not earned three or four beads yet how does this additional use of the recognition negatively effect them? Were you aware that Wood Badge beads are used in several countries around the world. Are you positive that every country uses them the same way we do? If not how would their different requirements or uses for earning beads effect you or scouters in this country? Please be as specific as possible. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Isn't the "appropriate" use of the award determined by the people who give the award? No one said you can't have an opinion, but just having an opinion does not make it a useful or well thought out opinion. Why be "concerned" (if worried is the wrong word), that the committee that determines training recognitions chooses to expand how they use a recognition they control. How in the world does that effect others? The beads you have earned are no more or less a recognition of what you did to earn because of what another person does to earn them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

One step is to get away from the misunderstanding that the SPL arranges patrol activities. Patrol Leaders lead Patrols not the SPL. The SPL leads Troop activities. Those would be the activities when more than one patrol is particpating, buit even then the SPL leads the overall activity and Patrol Leaders lead the patrols. As far as what they do, that depends on what the Patrols decide they want to do. Your role is to train Patrols leaders to be able to help the patrols make these decisions, and how to work with the other elected patrol leaders and the SPL to coordinate them.

The folks who own the awards get to determine how they are used. The beads you have are for the work you did. Do not worry about whether or not you did more or less work, or even different work, then others who wear the same recognition.

BadenP Your efforts to attack my posts simply to attack me personally are becoming more and more blatant. I never addressed why Fannie Mae or Freddie mack were created, only by whom. There was nothing incorrect or innacurate in my post. If you can factually dispute anything I presented please show your evidence? Do you deny they were created by a Democrat controlled Congress under a Democrat president in 1938? Do you deny that the they were privatized under LBJ, a Democrat, also with a Democrat controlled congress. Or that the bail out was passed now by a Democrat controlled congress from a plan endorsed by a Democrat controlled Senate Banking Committee? You can shout Republican Socialism all you want, but the facts cannot be changed that this was a Democrat creation and every major problem with it came from the actions of a Democrat controlled congress. Now perhaps you can base your response on the facts and not on your personal opinion of me...but I doubt it.

Why reinvent the wheel. If youfollow the procedures already documented for the Cub Program by the resources of the BSA then you would have very little that would be needed to be added at the individual unit level. As Cubmaster your role is primarily planning and leading the Pack program. Any other administrative procedures to be determined are the responsibility of the Committee Chairperson's. AS far as SOP's to pass along, remember that the person you follows ion your role is not required to do things the way you did them. Their obligation is to follow and deliver the BSA program. But there is alot of room for individual creativeness, it would be wrong to harness them to the 'Way we do things here". Have fun with the scouting program and don't feel that you need to model its administration in a military function. If that is how you operate best thendo it for yourself, but do not expect those who replace you to have to do it that way as well.

Hands on istruction is taught to leaders in multitude of Scouting training venues including Scoutmaster /Asst Scoutmaster leader Specific Training, Introduction to Outoor Skills, Roundtable, Wood Badge and other courses. It is done in a variety of ways including hands-on practice, keeping in mind that adults learn differently from youth.

Words have meaning and you cannot ignore a definition of "official" just because it does not fit your goal. The site I offered explains the official Air force method, which is also shared by other branches of the armed forces of the US. "Official" has many definitions, and among them are "prescribed or recocgnized as authorized." The BSA in multiple official Handbooks prescribes a specific method of folding the flag and requires that it be done in that precribed manner as a requirement of advancement. An act need only be prescribed by an authority to be official withinh that authority. (as exampled by the armed forces official way to fold the flag). Nothing requires it to be a government edict to be "official". Had GW specified that he wanted to to the offical method prescribed by the Flag Code for folding a flag then he would be correct. But he did not. He simply asked for an official way, and he got an "official way. He asked scouters on a scouting forum about an "official" method, and the BSA prescribes a specific method. Such action meets the definition of "official", unless you intend to ignore the definition of the word?

BZZZZZZZ Oh, I am so sorry, GW was incorrect and will not be going to the championship round. You see there are a lot of ways that something can be "official", it does not have to be government prescribed. This being a scouting forum, and we being members of the BSA, the Boy Scout Handbook explains the way that as Scouts we fold an American flag . It is explained in multiple BSA BSA resources and is a required skill for the Tenderfoot rank as a Boy Scout. Thus making it "official" by being the prescribed method from an authority, in this case the BSA. It is the same as the method shown in the upper portion of the site I shared the link to. Folding the American flag is not only traditional but for members of the BSA it is the prescribed (official) way that scouts do it. Thanks for playing we will see you back next time.

http://www.usflag.org/foldflag.html

It really funny how quickly some folks lapse into blaming others instead before first looking at themselves. Why would anyone expect parents to understand the program before they join unless someone in the program first take the time to explian it to them? That's the Scoutmasters job. Who's at fault if a "trained" leader does not have the skills it takes to be a First Class Scout? Don't lay all the blame on the trainers, the Scout Leader should have his own handbook, if he or she doesn't do some reading and practicing on their own then it's their own fault. (Sorry I forgot that so many folks on this forum don't like to read Scout handbooks) If you believe that a merit badge councselor doesn't actually know the topic then you have a responsibility to report that to the council advancement committee. However, if the problem is simply that you disagree then let's remember that the MB counselor is usually a professional or expert in their topic, there is always the possibility that they really do know more than you do. Beavah, if there is a relationship between knowing the program, policies and procedures causes one to not know the skills of Scouting, you certainly have not shown it in your post. It's far more likely that someone who cannot follow or remember some simple rules will likely have trouble following or remembering some simple skill instructions.

More Socialism from Republicans? We can track the Democrat involvement in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac back to their very beginning. It was Democrat FDR that created these institutions and sheltered them from inspection from the SEC, It was Democrat LBJ that privitized them but without removing their immunity from taxation. So they became a private company that had no government oversight and yet had government granted freedom from taxation. Then came Clintons involvement that Eisley outlined. Followed by the Democrat controlled Senate that passed the the bial-out plan that they attached to a "Home Owners Relief" plan, to insure that it would not get vetoed. Now the Democrat presidential candidate is courting votes by saying he will make sure that people who can't pay their mortages can keep their homes. That certainly doesn't seem to be raising any eybrows among dems, but it should. Republican Socialism??? Hardly.

If you have concerns over the moral or ethical behavior of another adult the first step would be to talk to that adult yourself, anthing else is simply gossiping. Let him know that you feel his behavor in front of the scouts towars the other woman is inappropriate and that his private business needs to remain private. You can tell him that if his behavior continues to suggest any impropriety in front oof the scouts that you will address the issue with the troop committee chairman, and the head of your charter organization or the charter organization representative.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't know if it is poor training, no training, or the ignoring of training that causes this, but a number of leaders seem to not understand the 4 separate steps of advancementin Boy Scouting, and how they are supposed to be implemented. The first two steps seem to be the most confounding to some folks. 1)A Scout learns 2)A Scout is tested It seems some are in a hurry to do this as a single step. The idea behind the learning is that the scout has opportunities to practice and apply the knowledge to show that it is truly learned. It is in the application of the knowledge that the scout is tested. If leaders are rushing through advancement it is by their choice, and not by any instruction or element of the BSA program. To blame "pencil whipped" advancement on "First Class First Year" (FCFY)simply shows a misunderstanding of the BSA program on a number of levels. First FCFY is not an advancement process, it is a certificate that a scout can receive for being active enougnh to learn and apply all the skills from Tenderfoot to First Class in 12 months or less from their date of joining the troop. It is also the title of a personal tracking card and and form that can be used to record individual advancment. What people who talk about FCFY are usually refering to is First Class Emphasis. This is not an advancement program for youth either. It is a planning tool for adult leaders, to focus them on meetings and activities that teach, practice and apply the skills that scouts would need to learn to achieve First Class rank during a 12 to 14 month period. The fact that there is a time frame does not mean it is rushed or that scouts should be advanced whether they have learned the skills or not. It just gives the leader an idea of how long it usually takes to be apble to learn, practice and apply these skills if you have an organized, and planned program. If any leader actulally looked at what is required to become First Class they would see that there really are not that many requirements or that advanced of skill or knowledge for this to be difficult to do within the recommended time frame. An active Scout should have no trouble completing Tenderfoot in a 90 day period. Let's all remember that these first three ranks represent the BASIC skills a scout needs to be able to be safe and comfortable outdoors, and until they reach that comfort level they will not be able to build upon them to reach higher skill levels and attempt greater levels of adventure. If you have Scouts 13 and up who lack the basic skills to be able to do things as a patrol without adult supervision then you have significant program problems caused by lack of use of the BSA program Methods. Scouts who advance without knowing the Scouting skills is a problem with the adult leadership in the unit. If the learner has not learned...then the teacher has not taught.

I think the view causing the most problems here is that ASM59 sees being a trainer as "helping the district" and as such should not have a fee to attend since the district is who benefits from his work. In reality as a trainer ASM59 serves the local units as is a benefit to them. Trainers are a servie of the district but they serve the unit volunteers not the district body itself. It is an important difference. (by the way this council charges $35 to attend Trainer Development/BSA 500)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Where amazes me is that some see bill created and passed by a democratic controled congress as "Socialism from Republicans". If Democrats did not want this to happen then they had the votes and the committee power to not write the bil and not pass it. Is it socialism, yes in some ways. Is it the result of a democrat controlled congress, undeniably.

Anyone who thinks that teenage boys don't like adventure or recognition probably lacks the needed understanding of youth to be a good selection for a scout leadership. The problem of scouts not wanting to advance is most prominent in units that make advancement the goal of scouting rather than using it as a way of measuring a scout's skills, and recognizing them for their achievemeents. The purpose of the program is to develop character, citizenship and fitness not to get rank advancements. If you deliver the program correctly every active scout will achieve First Class and will undersand what they will need to do if they choose to advance further. If an occasional scout has no interest in advancing further thats not unusual, but if a unit has a lot of Scouts who are not advanceing that is a unit leadership problem. But a fun and adventurous program will motivate scouts to seek more information and higher skill levels and advancement will come to them through their participation and the choices they make. Also keep in mind that some scouts simply work at a different pace than others. I have seen scouts take more than three years to earn Star but then mature and become more goal oriented and start making and working an advancment plan.

Having organized a few units here is what is shared with the Charter Organization Representative in selecting a Committee Chair if they want to have a strong successful Scouting program. 1)They need to have the time available to get the job done, including chairing a 90 minute meeteing each month 2) They should have basic leadership skills including being a good communicator, planner, evaluator, problem solver, and motivator. recruiter. 3) They must be willing to attend training and to support training for all other adult volunteers in the unit. 4) They must meet the joining requirements of the BSA and agree to follow the program, rules, and procedues of the BSA. 5) They need to be a person of strong positive values and morals. The BSA has no control over who they actually select other than insuring they meet the joining requirement. The closer they stay to this criteria the better their chances of success. The further from these characteristics the greater the likelyhood of failure. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually Dean I don't think many veteran leaders get frutrared by new leaders. I know personally I am very happpy to see new leaders join. Every good leader I have ever know was a new leader at some point in time. What frustrates the good leaders I know are volunteers who refuse to use or refuse to follow the program regardless of how long they have been in the BSA. It's the folks who ignore the program Methods that are so frustrtaing. They chase scouts from the program, and after being in the program a while you will see that they are easy to spot. It's like how a skilled commissioner can vistit a scout unit and know if they are healthy, heading the right way or wrong way, or likely to collapse if they do not change direction. It doesn't take long to know if a person knows the program, follows the program, or is just doing what they want dressed up in a Scout uniform A bad leader will chase more scouts out of the program then a good leader will ever meet. A new leader that asks questions is never a frustration, a new or old leader who refuses to use the scouting program policies, procedures and Methiods as the source of the right answers is VERY annoying, and destined to foul up a perfectly good youth program. The longer they stay without changing the more scouts they will chase away. Leaders who lack the character to play the game of Scouting by the rules of scouting simply get in the way of the volunteers who care about the youth and the goals of Scouting. Scouts do not quit good Scouting units, and good leaders do not deliver bad programs. You look through the many unit problems you will find in the years that this forum has been operating, you will notice that no one ever posted a problem that started with "we followed the program and it didn't work". That's because the program works just fine, when you follow it the way it is designed to work. If this forum was about peole wanting to learn the scouting program or wanting to share the successes of the scout program it would be a much better and I think a more popular site. But a handful of posters quickly turned this into a place to whine and moan about all the things wrong with scouting. And what is apparent is that what is wrong is that they refuse to learn or use the scouting program. Not every boy was meant to be in scouting, neither is every adult. Thank you by the way Dean for being willing to discuss this politely and calmly. Happy Scouting, BW

Lisa bob The last post was just to correct Beavah. The BSA in all the other training and resources except fo the one on-line document say nothing about an ideal time period only about review scouts as they are ready to advance or those not advancing. If you think about it a scout who is making progress toward a rank is not in need of a BoR just because it is a 6 month anniversary. What the BSA has always promoted is regular boards. Many units I have worked with or visited have boards once a month. They would meet with scouts ready to advance and would meet with scouts selected by the SM or the advancement committee chair.

"Nowhere in the materials is it ever suggested that BORs should be only for those advancing, or for boys who aren't making any progress toward advancement. " Yes it is! In fact I can offer you three offical resources that say that. Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual page 28 Scoutmaster Handbook page 126 The Troop Committee Guide Page 30 and 31 Yet none the "ideal" period of time mentioned in the on-line document.

DeanRx, Consider an alternate possibility. Perhaps what causes that perceived attitude is frustration on the part of the experienced Scouters, when they find they are confronted by scouters either new or experiend who seem to purposely misuse or ignore the program that they and so many have worked to help develop and deliver. They see the scouts that are being chased away not by the BSA program but by individuals refusing to learn and or use the BSA program? I know personally that when a scouter shows interest in learning the program by attending training or asking questions I am thrilled to help them. But when someone who does not read the handbooks and ignores the training wants to tell me all the things that are wrong with the program, or when they blame their inability to deliver the program on the kids, or their parents, or the uniform or the handbook, I have a distinctly different reaction. I have very low tolerance for that kind of egotism and ignorance when it comes to serving youth and the community. Perhaps the veteran scouters you refer to feel the same?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Excuse me, but wasn't it a Democrat controlled congress that voted to bail out Freddie and Fannie on the recommondation of a democrat controlled Senate Banking Committee? An action that by the way was supported by the presidential candidates of BOTH parties. Bush, said he would veto the bail-out, but the democratic congress added it to a housing bill that was originally designed to help homeowners help keep their homes. Bush could note veto just part of the bill, could he? We return you now to the history revisionism probable still in progress.

I stand corrected as this is something new that does not appear in any other advancement training or resource on Boy Scouting. (the document is dated this year.) So OGE do you take this as meaning that a Star Scout making proigress toward Life and who at the 6-month mark should go before a BoR even if he is on a track to finish in a few weeks from then? So do you thing that the program is suggesting that even a scout who is actively advancing should be reviewed based on time rather than need, or that a Scout that is not showing progress should be reviewed at least every 6 months? I think if you look at what is written on this topic in the BSA Advancement Committee Guide and in the SCoutmaster Handbook it makes more sense and accomplishes the goal.