Bob White

A local temporary patch. you would have to ask someone in your area as to the event it represents. The right shirt pocket is the placement area for temporary patches. There are so many different ones that there is no resource that shows them all. BW

What are the wishes of the Charter Organization? They sponsor the program to meet their goals, not the goals of the Advisor. Bob White

"Those who can't follow will be ineffective leaders." Show us evidence of that. If a person is taught the skills of leaderhip by someone who knows how to teach them, and they are given the opportunity to practice, then there is no reason for them not to be able to lead. The scouting program has 93-years of experience doing that very thing. "I don't think you can expect people to follow a person as a leader if that person didn't do the same when they were led." What a shame to not believe that with proper training and opportunity people can change and grow. Happily the scouting program does not share that attitude and develops young leaders every day. "Train them, Trust them, Let them lead." William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The BSA regularly uses the sub group "unit leaders" when refering to all the program positions held by adults, that is to say everyone except committee members and COR. BW

Mike, if you have completed your basic training (new Leader Essentials and Wolf/Bear den Leader specific Training) then by all means go to Wood Badge. It's not something you "try for" for the way, it is something you "do". I am confident you will find it rewarding regardless of your experience and it will only help to enhance your future scouting experiences. (Ask if you can be a Bobwhite ) Bob White

I am with Eamonn. Just because a SM can does not mean the SM should. You need to focus on your task at hand. Use this opportunity to get others involved in the program. Scoutmasters need to attend to training Junior Leaders and knowing the needs and characteristics of each Scout. Share the load with others. Bob White

Proud Eagle, If the troop I served had the membership make-up that you did I would use two patrols. One New scout patrol the other would be either a Regular Patrol of 7 members (or a Venture Patrol depending on the skill level of the majority of the scouts). The remaining three scouts would consist of the offices of SPL, ASPL and Troop Guide. That way with the Troop Guide added in you would have two patrols of 7 members, and 2 senior leaders. The next step is recruitment so that you do not have another 3 to 4 year gap without new scouts joining. Hope this helps, Bob White

Part of leadership is "representing the group". In most cases that is a two-way street where you represent those above you in the chain as those below you. There are times when you are the lead dog and every decision is from your desk. So do leaders follow others, I do not see it that way. Good leaders understand the vision, goals and methods of those he serves from one direction and is able to share those things with those he serves in the other direction in a way that gets the job done and keeps the group together. He doesnt follow he distributes the action and responsibilities. Are you a follower of your State Senator? I hope you do not see yourself in that light. Your Senator is a peer whom you chose to represent you. Is a patrol member a follower of the Patrol Leader, no. He is a teammate, a peer who was elected by the patrol to represent them. His job is to help make plans on behalf of the wishes of his patrol and then to help get the job done and keep the group together through the use of leadership skills. In my opinion the quote you site is a meaningless clich that has no practical application to scouting or any leadership responsibility. Bob White

OGE, We agree completely. Barry, I have no problem with your last post as long as you are willing to preface your comments with the disclaimer that it is an academic arguement and not an endorsement to ignore or alter the scouting program as each of us has promised to follow and deliver. But, I do not get the feeling that that is your intention. Rather, you seem to want to validate your right to pick and choose what parts you decide to use and which parts you want to ignore regardless of the program guidelines that make what we do Scouting. What your rational for not using the methods of scouting are does not matter. It is not your responsibility to change the program. And that is where our differences reside.

The Council is an independent non-profit corporation that is responsible for delivering the scouting program to a specific geographic area. It charters with National each year just as the Cos do. The CO does not answer to anyone in scouting. they are a contractural partner. They agree to follow the program methods and policies of the BSA. The BSA agrees to give specific support to the Cos to help establish, grow, and maitain scouting iin that community. They also are in a way the BSA themselves as they are by charter the voting members of the District and Council as well as the make up of the national executive committee. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"What would happen if National said nothing about getting to first class in a year. Instead the text encourages the adults to develop a program that is prepared for any scout to work on advancement and scout skills any time he wants, when he wants? How would the program be different?" Well for one thing, there would be far fewer scouts in it. A Scout at approximately 10 1/2 years of age who has been in a advancement structured program for 4 1/2 years needs a transition from the Cub Advancement program to the self-driven ranks of Star, Life and Eagle advancement. That is one of the reasons for the New Scout Patrol program, to create over the first year of a 7 1/2 year tenure in the troop to form bufferzone while a foundation of skills to allow the scout to go from an adult dependent program to a state of near independence from adults is formed. ">>The BSA does reccommend, insist, really leans on you to have a program that would allow a scout to become a first class scout in a year. There is a huge difference between making sure the boys attain first class and having a program that enables the scout to become first class, if the scout shows up at meetings, activities, shows scout spirit, etc.

You are incorrect NWScouter. From the Commissioner Fieldbook of the BSA and on the BSA national website. "Commissioners must not be registered simultaneously as unit leaders. Some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a son in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, but their principle Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities. Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position." Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

When we train the scouts in the Outdoor Code we discuss what it means to be considerate in your outdoor manner. We ask them what makes more noise a group of scouts in a tent or two in a tent? They know, and if you discuss it honestly they will answer honestly. Since less is quieter and we have agreed to be considerate the scouts conclude that camping in pairs is better. If they are made responsible to carry their own gear, and if they are taught good camping skills, they choose smaller tents. We don't make rules, we teach scouting. Bob White

I'm nor sure yo are listening yet committeechair. The Scoutmaster has no say in who is a committee member and who is an Assistant SM. That is determined by the people who sign the adult application, specifically the Committee chair and the Institiona Head or the Charter Organization Representative.

Eamonn for King!

Mind if I jump in. As much as I appreciate Eagledad's effort to explain how I think, a more accuate method would be to ask me. I don't think I have ever said or suggested "adults first need to apply the tools correctly and they will understand the goals". I believe my message has been very consistent, The BSA has a specific mission. They look to accomplish that by affecting three specific areas of life that they call the 3 Aims. They accomplish this through the use of specific methods. Each program level has its own methods that are designed to meet the needs and charactristics of youth members in that particular program. It is these methods that create the elements of the scouting program. Without the use of these methods you are NOT scouting, you are simply doing stuff in a scout uniform. You cannot know which method to use if you do not know the aims, You cannot reach the aims effectively if you do not know the mothods. It is all inter-related. The most common problem I see as a trainer and in my years in commissioning, is that everyone seems to grasp the Aims, but many do not know, do not trust, or simply do not use the scouting methods. In the first few pages of The Boy Scout Handbook, we promise every Scout certain things, adventure, fun, leadership opportunities AND that if they are active in their troop and patrol they will achieve their First Class Rank in the first 12 to 14 months. Who is responsible for see to it that all those promises are kept? We are, every SM, ASM, committee member, and COR. We make the Scouting Program happen. If a scout keeps his part of the bargain and attends the meetings and activities then he should complete Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class ranks in 12 to 14 months as promised by the BSA program. But that means every unit needs an action plan based on those requirements each year that a new scout joins. That action plan is called The New Scout Patrol. If you do not do this than you have broken the promise of scouting. Your new scouts will leave at an unacceptable rate. You will have a poor program base to build future activities on, and your scouts will lack the needed basic skills for safe, fun activities. Forget about which way the flag patch should be pointing, or optional uniform kilts, or who is in charge of who. How good was your last troop meeting? How much better is this week's? That is the only thing that matters to the scout! Whether or not your program keeps the scout coming back, and whether or not we achieve the mission of scouting, is dependent on all of us understanding the aims, and knowing and using the methods of scouting. I quote the handbooks not to imply that you should know the books inside and out, but to show that most the things posters waste time trying to debate is already decided. Our responsibility is to deliver the program not to be couch quarterbacks and determine it. Do your job right and you will get the opportunity to have input on scouting. But first let's do our job right. The program says that Patrols are made of Scouts of simmilar age and abilities, NOT mixed-up. The program allows for two exceptions, otherwise, if you want to offer an effective. BSA program you should do it the way the program recommends. "I didn't realize that it was my job to keep them busy. I must have missed that day of Scoutmaster School." Well color me surprised to hear that! Aren't we suppossed to be program leaders? What exactly is the point of a planned program if not to have the participants PARTICIPATE. What is going on at this weeks meeting? Would it make any boy of Boy Scout age want to return? Does it affect Character, Citizenship, or Fitness? The question for debate should not be NSP or mixed. The question is "Do you follow the Scouting program or not? "Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are willing to do it" By the way Eamonn impresses me more with every post. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I really believe that nothing recruits better than a strong year round program. As far as people outside the unit knowing that never seems to be a problem. Kids talk to other kids, parents talk to other parents, leaders see things and talk at events. But we also make a point to meet the Cubmaster and Webelos leaders from the packs near us. We have a campout or lock-in every Winter for Webelos to meet the Scouts. We do a Scouting orientation for parents at that time as well. We assist at crossover ceremonies, and have pictures of our adventures and our activity calendar on display in our meeting hall. At this point in time we are expecting two New Scout patrols in February. Bob white

Okay Dsteele, I'm 48.

I will add a caveat to my previous post. There are some District positions that make you ineligible to hold a unit position and vice-versa. The rules for Commissioner service do not allow you to hold a unit leadership position while a unit commissioner. The only exception is unit committee, even then only if you were on the committe PRIOR to becoming a unit commissioner. Bob White

You should not hav any difficulty verifying advancement. Acco450. That's a very nice thing for you to do for him. BW

Is there a maximun number of postions that adult volunteer Scouters can register into? Over all, no, however there are some program limitations. For instance, you cannot register in two positions or more in the same unit, unless you are the COR, and then there are limitations as to what you can be. What is the BSA policy on which registered position is considered the "Primary" registered position?, The position where you paid your registration fee. Should a membership card be issued for each registered position? DSTEELE your turn! If an adult volunteer Scouter is registered in one or more different unit (Pack, Troop, Crew) positions, AND a District or Council postion which is considered the "Primary" registered position?, The position where you paid your registration fee. Can an adult volunteer register in more that one District or Council position, and if so, which one would be the "Primary" registered position? The position where you paid your registration fee. And as a followup to these questions, which uniform should a multiple registered (ACTUALLY registered) adult volunteer Scouter wear? Is it the uniform of the "Primary" position at all times or the uniform for the each registered position when actully participating in those other positions? Either is appropriate. Bob White

A parent who serves on a unit committee who is not registered is not entitled to wear the uniform of a member of the BSA. In the same vein, A volunteer on a district Committee who is not registered on the district committee is not entiled to wear the position of responsibility or service color shoulder tabs of a District volunteer. The question here is who is responsible, the volunteer, or the Committee Chair who should have gotten the volunteer registered? Until the volunteer is registered on the district committee he or she would wear the uniform designations of the position they do hold. Actually even if multiple registered the volunteer is always correct if in the uniform of their primary position of service. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

How many Birthdays am to willing to admit to? One each year! Bob White

I cannot tell you how glad I am that dSteele is on this forum. There are a number of volunteers worth paying attention to, I am especially impressed by Eamonn, dan, acco40, OGE, mk9750, matuawarrior, among others. But no matter how knowledgable volunteers are there are times you need an understanding of the professional side. DSteele in invaluable to us. All too often communication between volunteers and their support professionals is clouded by poor communications from one side or both. Dave has been very gracious to help clarify things that even the most involved volunteer has little exposure to. Plus there are far to many falacies being spread by volunteers who rather than take time to learn, and would rather generate rumors that harm the program and vital relationships. So thanks for being there Dave and jump in any time. (go take a shower and get some rest you smell like butter ) So we are fortunate to be able to talk with volunteers with strong program experience and a professional with current administrative and support information who is willing to share. NOW to the thread. SPL T-15 Your Troop is in violation of the BSA advancement policies and procedures and needs to follow today's program. Youth members are not to stafing Boards of review. Acco40 references are correct. (You show great promise Grasshopper) Best wishes, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

scoutldr is corect. "Not sure what grounds could be used to deny a parent to join the committee." Any the charter organization wishes to give or none at all. Parents do not own units their sons are members, if registered they are volunteers, but ONLY the CO is the owner. "I can't find anything in the guide that says committee members must be trained." Nor will you find anything that says they "must" be trained. Scoutldr said correctly "should be trained" as should all registered adults. How can a committee members support a program without know what the program methods, aims and mission are? "We do also have parents that are registred Committee Members. The only problem with them is that they do not come enough to know what is actually going on in the troop to make informed decisions, however it is a big help." How could anyone who is making uninformed decisions actually help? You make two distinctions in committee members. There are those who have specific responsibilities who regularly participate, and those without specific responsibilities that rarely show-up. Do you see the correlation? Don't ask people to be on the troop committee. Ask them to do a specific job and regisater them on the committee. Bob White