Bob White

"Beyond that, it is generally sink or swim. Scout retention is totally up to the units, with no support or training to help units retain Scouts." I cannot agree with that at all. There is all kinds of support to keep units going whether new or established. Council and district committees exist just for that. Roundtable, pow wow, University of scouting, Commissioner service, Training, Popcorn, Activities, Newsletters, Scouting magazine, FOS, Just to name of few of the things organized and supplied by council and district support all to keep units going. And let's not forget the scouting program itself and all the program resources; How to Book, Program Helps, Den and Pack Ceremonies, Troop resource book, Troop Program Books. All there to help you provide an age appropriate, hands on, active unit program to keep the scouts comming back week after week, year after year. To say that a unit is on its own, simply has no basis in fact. A unit whose leadership does not utilize all the support and resources of scouting has not been abandoned, it chose to run away! Bob White

I don't see how a scout purposely using the scouting program in order to improve his college opportunities is misuse of scouting. Should we not want him to go to college? Do we not want scouting to be an asset toward higher education opportunities? "Misuse would be using Scouting to proselytize for a specific religion". I cannot see the validity of this eiher. The scouting program encourages all religions to use the scouting program as part of their ministry. The LDS, and Methodist Churches and others,have been extremely successfull in incorporating Scouting to teach and support their religious beliefs. Both of these points seem more to be positive uses of scouting not a misuse, don't they?

Has the young man asked to continue? Has his family asked? If he is going to be a father perhaps he has more important responsibilities he should be attending to? What has the family or the scout asked of the troop? Has he asked to attend meetings? Has he asked to advance? Does he simply want to retain memebership while he takes time to make some decisions. What is he asking of you? Bob white

This is kind of like asking "What is breaking the law?". There are some many lwas covering so many things that listing them all here is not feasible. Scouting is a vast, multi dimensional program. It has several intertwining elememts. Its use however is to use positive examples, positive activities, positive rewards and positive encouragement to achieve positive goals. Any behavior that does not fit the use of scouting is misuse of scouting in my opinion. Bob White

What has the family or the scout asked you to address?

Councils are required to keep all advancement records, permanently.

Give your son a firm scout handshake and hardy pat on the back from me for the work he has accomplished. Then, have him wear his mb sash to any formal occasion that seems appropriate. If he really wants to give the APL something to stew about, have him sew his favorite temporary patches on the back of the sash (very few people know that is allowed). Good luck to him as you continues to advance. Bob

Hotdesk, Please forgive the crassnes which seems to eventually raise it's ugly head no matter what the topic of a thread seems to be. To refresh everyone on the original topic, You asked if the merit badge sash was appropriate to wear as part of a formal field uniform occassion such as a funeral. You said you were especially interested in what I had to say. My response is yes, and while I am a big supporter of the value and effect of a complete uniform, I appreciate the fact that not every scout owns one. That being the case I continue to support the BSA view that a scout should wear as complete and correct a uniform as possible. That however does not give a unit or individual the right to modify the uniform, except for the parts approved for unit options. To require specific pants other than the official BSA uniform pants is not within a unit's, or individual's, authority. I am sorry for the loss of your scouter. I apologize if anyone in this thread gave the impression that he was anything other than a fine person. I share Eamonns opinion that participation in such an event should be a personal choice. I would hope if anyone wishes to continue the discussion about whether or not we are a family of scouts would be respectfull enough of your situation to begin a new thread, and not use your situation to debate that topic. With sypathies, Bob White

The APL has confused the uniform regulation regarding the long-sleeved uniform shirt with the regulations covering the mb sash. A scout can wear up to 6 merit badges on the sleeve of the long-sleeve shirt. You can display as few or as many merit badges on the front side of the sash as you want. My suggestion is sew his merit badges on the sash and wear it at appropriate times. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

While i would agree that scouting is a world brotherhood, I feel no kinship to those who degrade or misuse the program and it's members. Brotherhood carries with it shared responsibilities in order to respect and maintain the relationship. Bob White

9 weekends, 2 week-longs. So about 28 to 30 nights.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Black pants are not part of the uniform of Boy Scouts. They are not forbidden wear, they are simply not part of the uniform." Exactly right DS, and to represent them as such is not within the authority or responsibility of a volunteer at the unit, district or council level. Wearing black dress pants with a uniform shirt is no more correct than wearing jeans. It is not for the troop to determine anying other than the neckerchief on the field uniform. Bob White

You still have the same problem. You are a subcommittee of the council. There is no financial independence for you. All funds are council funds. DS gave you the right path. Present a detailed budget to the council finance committee explaining your needs. How council money is spent is there responsibility. The more prepared you are with accurate detailed information the more likely they are to Meet your budgetary request for next year. if you want, share your fundraising plan with them They may decide that it is a way to finance the COPE budget. But again, have your ducks in a row. What is the upfront costs, what are your other costs (processing purchases, shipping, storage? How many would you need to sell how will you advertise, what will that cost? What is the risk? When you are responsible for the stewardship of other peoples money there are a lot of things to consider. I am not saying don't do it. i am saying be able to do it right. Bob White

There is an impotant difference between Eamonn's message and Proud Eagle's. Eamonn realizes that he will not recieve the Quality District recognition because the district did not make it's goals. Proud Eagle did not set The Quality Lodge recognition as a goal. Good, because the recognition is not meant to be a goal. It is the recognition for achieving goals that national recognizes as benchmarks in a healthy program, be it a unit, District, Council or Lodge. You are not supposed to set the recognition as a goal. You are to set the achievement of the various challenges as goals, and the recognition comes if you meet all the challenges. The Quality _______ Recognitions are an impotant balance of elements that tell you and national if scouting is healthy in your community. You cannot for instance focus soley on program and decide you have a healthy program if you do not have the funds to keep the service center operating, or maintain rank awards in stock. If you have done a great job fundraising but you didn't recruit new members you do not have a healthy program. If boys are joining but not getting a good program due to untrained leaders, then membership and financial support will soon fall. Achieving the elements needed to recieve the Quality Unit, District, Council or whatever recognition is an imortant health check that everyone on the support level of scouting from the unit down must take seriously. Eamonn, I know the feeling of disappointment you have. Our District has had times when we did not meet our goals either. But, thanks to the benchmarks used to determine the award, at least you can see why. You know where you District has a chink in its armor and you can now make plans to improve. Remember this was not your fault. The District is a team effort. No one person achieves or loses this recognition. Everyone gets it or everyone is responsible for not getting it. Rally the team, plan and achieve. I have no doubt the District will be stronger this coming year. Bob White

It is something your council could do as the local legal scouting non-profit organization. Can you or the COPE committee do it? No. Lets say you made the plates and they did not sell. Who is going to pay for the plates to be manufactured? Who would be financially responsible for the loss? Now lets say it makes money, is your committee a registered 501C (I believe that is the designation) nonprofit corporation? Who is responsible then for the taxes due on those sales? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ozemu, there is the rub. Due to the health regulations here in the BSA for us to put six persons in a tent during a long term camp we would have to use a tent that had a floor area in excess of 180 sq.ft, basically a 10 X 20 tent. With the number of scouts we go to camp with, the troop would need 5 such tents. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, not only that but wear would I store them the rest of the year? Bob White

I had a scout who went to the local zoo and studied about zoo enclosures for Tigers. With the guidance of the head zoo keeper he designed a timber excercise playground for the big cats at the zoo. He got the needed supplies donated from local lumber yards and supervised the construction of three such pieces of equipment for the zoo. It took over 3-months and several hundred labor-hours. The exhibits lasted about 7-years. Another scout cleared a 1 1/4 mile hiking trail at a State Park. Every 1/10 mile he cleared a campsite area put in a fire ring, a log perimeter, built a picnic table for each, stacked ample firewood. It took a few months to do.That was over twenty years ago, those sights are still used today. One scout from a troop where I served as Scoutmaster rescued an old cemetery. Reset the head stones, cleaned them, documented the names and dates and locations of the persons at rest there, landscaped the grounds and organized a rededication ceremony. One scout designed and landscaped a meditation garden at his church. It was about 1200 sq. ft. in area and included dozens of different species of perrenial flowers, had benches constructed and installed and organized a dedication ceremony. It took several weeks and several hundred labor hours to complete. Just a few of my favorites. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I, as the 'troop coordinator for funerals' have decided upon the following uniform" The problem, Hotdesk, is that no matter what title you may have, you have no such authority to determine the uniform of the BSA. The uniform determined by the national executive committee of the BSA and no one else. While a member may not own the entire uniiform, he or she is expected to wear as complete and correct a uniform as possible. The BSA does not allow any individual or unit to alter the required BSA uniform pieces. The official shirt, pants, belt, and socks make up the official Boy Scout uniform. It is not within your authority to change any one of those pieces. Bob White

Those were originally released for use during Wood Badge. You wore an unadorned leader uniform. The only sewn on badges added were the troop 1 numeral and your patrol medallion, a temporary patch was not worn. Today's Wood Badge course does not require the participant to remove any correctly diplayed insignias. I'm not saying the name badge cannot be worn on the pocket, but it then eliminates any way to display a temorary patch. By using the designated areas that is not an issue. I was just offering an option, it's no big deal. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I like Acco40's anwer a lot. Although I see the thought process behind putting on a "special show" to impress the potential members, what happens when they see your week-to-week program? Your troop meetings are hopefully well prepared and fun anyway. I am all for showing the Webelos what they can honestly expect each and every week when they join the troop. The one addition I would make is a parent orientation, to let the adults ask questions and to inform them what membership in the troop entails. Bob White

Another option Owl62 would be to make a wooden nameplate to adhere in the correct uniform position above the right pocket flap, in order to leave the right pocket available for displaying temporary activity patches. A good way to do this is with a magetic badge mount. Bob White

I think you misunderstood my post ozemu. We do teach tents as tools not toys. We do teach them to select their tentage based on multiple factors. But few troops have the resources to own multiple types of tents, and I can say from my experience that few families purchase their own tents when they know that the troop supplies them. So we have to stock the most usable style for our camping situations. One thing we consider is impact. Large tents tend to have greater physical and audio impact than smaller tents. Plus smaller tents are easier for the scouts to assemble and care for. So there is more method to our madness but I was only addressing one issue at the time I posted. Now when you say you use a 6-person tent, you don't mention how many Scouts you put in there. Bob White

As long as no one else can hear them except for the user I have no problem. I do not want electronic devices to interfere with my enjoyment of the outdoors or from others enjoying the outdoors. but if a scout wants to spoil his own opportunities that's up to him. I have had scouts regret missing animals that we saw and sounds that we heard because they had their heads down or headsets on. After that they choose to only have them in their tents at night and often don't use them at all. We have also had a few destroyed by weather, that quickly puts and end to their owners bring them back. It just hasn't been an issue. We are there to guide and teach, not control their every move. You have to give Scouts the opportunity to make their own decisions. Take a deep breath...now relax....it's just not that big a deal. Bob White

SPL t-15 Take a few moments and re-read the requirements for the project. It must "be helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community." You do not get extra points for really helpful, or really really helpful. It's fine that you have motivation, but that does not do anything more toward meeting the requirement. Here is where your project is lacking "plan, develop, and give leadership to others" It would seem to me that most of the planning for a blood drive is out of your control, or already done by the agency collecting the blood. It's nice that you will give blood, but how? You have told us that you were what, about 14? You must be 17-years-old to give blood according to the Red Cross. But if you had fulfilled the Eagle requirement to "plan" the project wouldn't you have known that? Finally, where's the beef? The only leadership you have shared with us is telling a scout to hand a person a shirt and that would have been done anyway even if you weren't there. "getting the people in orderly and and being kind", I don't know if you have ever been to a blood donation event but this is not the kind of activity where mosh pits form, or folks scramble for the best seat. Your intentions are fine but the need for such service is highly unlikely. Bottom line SPL T-15 is that you've presented this to a bunch of leaders who have seen a ton of Eagle Projects and they are all telling you the same thing. If this came past a committee we sat on, the answer would be no. I recommend you consider a new project. Bob White

So Ed, let me get this straight. Today you are arguing against something with me that only yesterday you agreed with OGE was true. Why are you not arguing with OGE? I'll be honest Ed, you make my head hurt. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)