Bob White

Let me ask the question ofyou Pamaha. In your training and in your learning about the scouting program, what lead to you to belive that there is or should be a coorelation between unit fundraising and earning a merit badge? In what part of your role as a someone who develops and nurtures positive values in young people were you instructed to use punishment to motivate a scout to participate. Were you warned not to allow friendships between parents and leaders? Rather than ask us to provide evidence that what you want to do isn't a part of scouting, what eveidence can you provide that it is? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The difference is that one shares goals and values similar to the BSA (the Mormon church) and one does not (the FOG Crypto-Fascist Fan Club). But you already knew that.

Why do we gang up on professionals? I'm not sure "we" do. I think some volunteers gang up on some professionals and I think some volunteers gang up on all professionals. There will always be a certain small profession of people in any profession that just aren't good at it. Why are some of these people allowed to become professional scouters? Do you know what the call the medical student with the lowest passing grade? DOCTOR. Hey no matter what the profession there are some people who are not good at it. Why do some people not like any professionals. Well as was pointed out they often seem to have goals different from our own. In alot ways they do. But the goals of a Scoutmaster are different from those of a District Commissioner. A DC goals are different from a Scout executives. What we share is the same mission. But our tasks and our goals are different. The problem I see is that some volunteers never take the time to understand the difference. Or to appreciate just what the professional side of scouting does. It is far easier to whine about the professional service than to ask "is this their responsibility" or "What roles do the volunteer and the professional serve in this instance". Some scouters believe that since they "volunteer their time" or "invest personal income" that it is distastefull to get "paid" for scouting. But the work done by Professionals and the time involved you could not get a volunteer to do. So why don't some volunteers get immediate service. Two reasons. Priorities is the main reason. Remember that pros have employers that have to satisfied. Some pros have pro employers some have volunteer employers but both have to please their employers in order to provide food and shelter for their families. If you r choise is between keeping your job or satisfying a volunteer what is your first priority?. The second priority is the volunteer who is the most in need or the most productive. If you are a pro serving 1100 volunteers and in any given week only 2% of your volunteers want something from you that is still 22 peaople in a week you are trying to satisfy. Who gets called back first? It's a ballance between helping the volunteer who is neediest, a new unit leader, a parent who want s to find a unit, a scout in need. Next is the scouter who is helping you meet the needs of scouting. A day-camp director who does their job, a membership chair who just recruited 300 new cubs, A FOS presenter wh raises a thousand dollars a presentation. A Scoutmaster who has the best program. So who gets pushed to the bottom of the call list? The grumps and whiners. The scouter who never supports FOS, who doesn't use the local summer camp, who doesn't earn quality unit, who doesn't attend Roundtable or District events. The Old Guy who just belittles the pro, the voulunteer, the uniform, the handbook. No professional is going to put another scouters needs ahead of that persons. When there is nothing else to do, when the goals are met, the productive scouters helped, the scouts happy and the desk is cleared, maybe then the whiny old guy will get his phone call. MAYBE. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hunt, you are partially correct. The diferentiation is that the BSA is by it's own definition a religious organization but not a political one. It promotes citizenship but specifically prohibits campaigning for a specific candidate or party. It does however recognize religious organizations that share the same values as chartered organizations. The charter allows the organization to use scouting to promote the mission of the charter organization. One poster took this to the absurd but suggesting that a "crypto-fascist" organization could use these same allowances to spread a non-souting message. What was either ignored or simply not known by the poster is that such an orhanization cannot hold a charter with the BSA. The problem is Hunt you have tried to attach characteristics associated with public organizations to the BSA which is a private organization,and is bound by the same restrictions. The BSA can allow or disallow what-so-ever it chooses. I this case, there is no restriction for a religious organization that holds a BSA charter from using it's scout unit to further the mission of the church, regardless of what church that is. The key is that the church must be the sponsor of the scout unit involved. Bob White

Den meetings are not the only situation where two-deep leadership is not required. Merit badge counselors are not required to have a second adult, but the scout is required to have a buddy. As others here have stated there are three different guidelines guidelines. 1) two-deep leadership is requireed fro tripps and outings 2) No adult is to be alone with a scout who is not there child 3) Scouts must use the buddy system I am a huge supporter of always having two adults. But the rules do not specifically require that as long as the scout is not alone with the adult. BW

The committee guide book goes a little further. It says that a SM needs to bring behavior problems to the committee where the committee, parents or guardians, scout and scoutmaster work together to solve the problem. It also stresses that every effort must be made to keep the boy in the program, and that removal from the unit (not the program) is the last thing the committee should do. This seems to different from both what I wrote and what DSteele wrote (and that doesn't happen very often). I have asked DS to recheck this to see if we can get a more definitive answer. Bob White

Thanks eamonn, I you took the pat I thought you would. the Oath is indeed a personal pledge to yourself. everyone makes mistakes. I am hopeful that scouting has kept innumeral young people from making this type of mistake, but again we are only human. I think it is reasonable to ask a scout to be an example to others of values he believes in , but these are chidren. The reason scoutng exists is because this is a difficult thing to do, even for most adults. I don't feel that my role is to judge kids, but to help in their development in a positive manner as best I can, using the methods of scouting. Bob White

So now is there anyone in the forum who hasn't figured out that FOG is a very unhappy person with little knowledge of the scouting program and who works on the fringe of unit leaderhip if at all, and whose only reason for being here is that he has no one in the real world who cares to engage in converstaion with him...please raise your hand......only one person? That's what I thought. Okay sir you can put your hand down now. Bob White

You are no more the BSA than you are the USA. You are a member of the BSA, and a citizen I presume of the USA. And while you have avenues for voicing your opinion, you not the decision maker, law giver, or controller of either. As a Scout leader you are no closer to being the BSA than a choir director is to being the Presbyterian Church. You are a member with only the authority and responsibilities that the BSA has determined to allow you. Now we all know at least one thing to be thankful for tomorrow. Bob White

You are the waiter in a restaurant, a customer comes in that you know for a fact cheated your father on a business deal. At what point do you decide to throw him out of the restaurant? You don't! It's not your restaurant, you just work there. It is the owner or the manager's decison as to who gets to be a customer. "What a scout does outside of the troop has to have consequences, just what actions would you consider "bad enough"" Perhaps, but I don't make that decision, I just work here. It is for the IH or the COR to determine who gets to be a member. If I were the IH or COR I would look at each individual situation and decide if the scout's behavior is dangerous to himself or others or is an unreasonable burden on the ability of the unit to deliver a quality program. There are some many elements that would need to be considered that I don't feel I could make up my mind ahead of time and still judge the scout or the situation fairly. Bob White

The professional scouter does not work for the volunteers. They work with the volunteer. They work for the BSA. A local volunteer committee helps to select and hire some professional positions but that does not make us the employer, just the selection committee. Volunteers help manage a council, that does not make them the employer of the professionals. As DSteele has explained before, the specific responsibilities of a professional depends on the size and structure of each local council. There is certain work that must be accomplished in every council, and some work that is council specific. The Council Scout Executive decides who will be responsible for what and how the council administration will function. Bob White

If you re-read my post eisely you will note that I wrote either the IH or the COR had the authority and no one else in the unit. The same holds true for suspensions. The unit is a youth program of the Charter Organization. Unit leaders and committee persons are there to operate the unit for the CO, not to determine who it shall serve. Hope that helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ignoring that I will probably be contradicted, Happy Thanksgiving! I hope each of you has someone to be thankful for. Bob White

The individuals would have the option to not participate. There was a Harris poll two years ago that had the statistics showing a boy with 4 years of scouting was far more likely to attend college and to complete a degree than a boy who had not been a scout. Your Council probably still has a complete copy of the poll results. You might also try the national website.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

When the Institution Head or the Charter Organization Representative determinines that A) the behavior of a scout creates a safety hazard to himself or others B) that his behavior puts an unreasonable burden on the ability of the troop to deliver a quality program C) for any reason determined appropriate The scout can be removed from the unit. The Council Scout Executive must be informed of the decision. No other persons have the authority to make this decision within the unit.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's nice to have opinions, but some facts would enhance and validate them. I have never known a church to send scouts door to door in uniform, but I have known churches who used their scout unit to do so out of uniform. There are enough actual misuses of the program going on that we could focus on rather than imagined ones. Plus, I am not aware of any regulation that prohibits a religious organization from actively using its scout unit in its church activities in or out of uniform. It cannot force a member who does not belong to that religion to participate, but that is the only restriction that I am aware of. Perhaps DS knows of a specific regulation that would keep the scouting members of an approved Church based charter organization from fully participating in the churchs religious obligations while in uniform. I know of none, and no poster, at this point in time, has provided any evidence that such a rule exists. Thank you Hunt for addressing the topic maturely Bob White

Just because they are the lone voice does not mean they are wrong. Are their opinions and concerns valid? Has anyone sat down with them and discused their concerns? What is an example of ways they have caused waves? Bob White

I am unaware of any church that has chosen to use uniformed scouts to go dorr to door. Keep in mind however that there are many, mant other ways to bring others to your church besides door to door, and whether or not the scout is in a uniform he is still a scout. There are many other ways to be dicussed that are actual misuse of a program that I did not see the validity of using scouting to spread a religious messgae or to further a college education to even consider them as misuse. The poster who originated seems to have no actual evidence that either behavior is prohibited or even cautioned against, by the BSA. There are leaders who steal money from units, bar parents from campouts, do not allow the SPL to select the troop officers, chase scouts out of the program, fail to invite youth into the program, don't use scout methods but wear the scout uniform, use scouting as a tool to be "the Boss" of something in their lives. To me that is misuse of the program. those are the things we should be concerned and appalled by. Not a scout performing his Duty to God. Bob White

Twocubdad, Why not do as other districts and set local goals beyond those identified in the Quality District recognition? Nothing is keeping your district committee from deciding that there will be zero dropped units in a program year, and using the resources of your district to attain that goal. Some problems in scouting are caused locally and need to be solved locally. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If a troop is all of one faith, (and the event is approved by parents, and church) the BSA has no rules or guidelines against it. As much as you do not like it personally, it is not a misuse of the scouting program, it is simply an aspect that you are unfamiliar with. Scouting is a youth outreach program of the chartering organization. If a church can use other clubs within the church to spread its teachings and bring others to its church, it can also use its scout units. Many religious organizations have scout units that consist of only the members of that church, which certainly makes this easier to do. It is not a misuse of scouting. In many ways, it is the application of the Oath and Law. So, am I to assume that you cannot defend an opinion without personally attacking me? Bob White

So now that we understand how you feel about me personally how about addressing the discussion. You still have not sighted any part of the program that would restrict a scout from sharing his religious belief with another person. How would a scout performing his "Duty to God" be a misuse of the BSA program? How is a parent, who realizes that a higher percentage of scouts than non-scouts attend college, be misusing the program? I am just trying to understand your points here. There are a lot of ways to misuse the program I just do not see these two as doing so. Please disuss the topic not me if possible. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You still have not sited any part of the program that would restrict a scout from sharing his religious belief with another person. Do not assume that because I realize it is not my program that I do not care about the scouting program . I am confident that those who have read my posts with an open mind know otherwise. But I think it would be wrong to believe the program would crumble should either you or I quit tomorrow. I would also hope that this topic could be discussed without further personal attacks. The topic was misuse of the program. Bob White

I agree that you have some very valid complaints about unit support in your district TwocubDad. I just feel it's important to recognize that it is a local volunteer problem and not one caused by the scouting program but by not using the scouting program, and that the solution must be found locally nad does not exist in all councils or all districts. I hope your District can find the trained volunteers to solve the problem. Bob White

Just for clarification, self-nflating pads use en cell foam inside a water-proof cover. I agree that a closed cell foam below is an inexpensive way to add some insulation, but an even cheaper way is with about 5 layers of newspaper (an excellent insulator) What you wnat to stay away from are common air mattresses and camp cots. You are only circulating cold air under you, very uncomfortable. If you are looking to make your bage warmer line it with a fleece liner (about $9.99- $14.99) or through a wool blanket on top. Remember to change out of the close you wore before bed, there is moisture vaper locked in the fibers and will chill you severly during the night. enjoy, Bob White

"So you wouldn't mind if the Mormons sent their missionaries out in BSA uniforms? There is a difference between a ministry and proselytizing." Should a church be allowed to use their youth outreach program to actually reach out to the community? Would I mind? What I think would be irrelevant since it is not my program. Would the BSA mind? Why would they? The program is structured to allow a charter organization to use the scouting program to promote our shared values. It's what we do, isn't it? Can't a churches choir be used to draw people to the church? Can't their mens club, and their lay ministers be used. Can't their youth program? Find me something in the scouting program that says they cannot.