Bob White

Your doing just fine Dave. Bob White

Nice try FOG. What my Scout Law includes is A Scout is Brave. I am not afraid of your bullying. You have no place to lecture anyone on this board regarding manners with the slew of insults you hurl at scouts, scouters, parents and others. I challenge any poster to find 6 positive statements you have shared in the last week. You are not here to help anyone least of youth. It's not that I want you to quit posting, your lack of substance enhances everyone else's posts. But that does not give you carte blanche to say want you want unchallenged. If the legacy you wish for is as resident muckraker and lay about, you have fulfilled your destiny. Congratulations. Bob white

NO

Anyone who believes that FOG has learned anything from anyone on this or any other forum please raise your hand...Yes sir, we see you... is there anyone else? Please put your hand down sir. BW

Hi KS, I do not know of any general policy against what some call "double dipping" in advancement. The are a few specific restrictions such as between the two merit badges you mentioned. But that rule is specific to that situation. If for instance you were the counselor for both those merit badges for a scout, would you require him to explain the same information that is requirement one of both Meritbadges two times to you in order to satisfy both merit badges? Using the same work for more than one merit badge is not prohibited as long as 1)the merit badge requirements do not specifically prohibit it, and 2) the work satisfies the requirements as presented in the handbook. Artificial rules do not enhance the program. Bob White

remember that the job desciptions are neither requirements or program elelments. They are suggested responsibilities for the adult leader and Junior leader to use as a trating block for determining their tasks and goals for the next 6 to 9 months. Who can best evaluate if the scout met these goals. The scout himself. The adult leader should periodically review the agreed upon leadership responsibilitites to keep the Scout on track and to help the scout self evaluate how he is performing. Bob White

Proud Eagle, Remember what the Scout Badge is. It is not a rank. It requires no testing except for tieing a square knot. It is a recognition that the scout meets the joining requirements and understands the basic symbols of scouting. Other than the health history and the pamphlet activities (which are the parent's responsibility to have done in advance)which if any requirement would take more than even 5 minutes to complete with the scout? Maybe the parts of the badge, and the understanding the Oath and Law. Remember they are not required to repeat it from memory, only to understand them. Rarely, if you have communicated with the parents in advance, can you not complete this the first night. First Class emphasis is more than a program suggestion, it is a promise made to every Scout in the opening pages of the Handbook. One which as leaders are obliged to make possible for the scout. Bob White

Unless you have worked in the nation registrars office since 1916 how could anyone possibly know if anyone from those organizations have "ever" applied. You have asked a ridiculous, unanswerable question. And you dodged mine completly. Bob White

Why would you drop him from your roster before his membership expires? He has done nothing in violation of the BSA? What is he costing you?

The intent is to have an Assistant Scoutmaster, wih the help of a Troop Guide, plan a program specifically for the New Scout Patrol(s) to enjoy. This program should be structured so that through their participation a scout will have the opportunity to learn, practice and apply all the skills and requirements needed to complete Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class Ranks within 12 to 14 months. The scout can then choose to stay with the New Scout Patrol as it becomes a regular patrol, or to join an already established regular patrol once he has achieved First Class Rank. Hope this Helps, Bob White

An even better question is, unless you know of such an organization that is a Scouting Charter Organization why does it matter if any have applied or not? Anyone can apply, what matters is who is accepted. And If any applied, unless anyone knows that such an organization is CO, we can presume that the answer from the BSA was "no". Bob White

"Why the first meeting?" Let me ask you, Why not the first meeting? The Scout Badge is not a rank, it signifies that the scout has met the joining requirements. If the parents has reviewed and signed the Child Abuse Awareness section at the front of the handbook (as they were asked to do when the scout visited as a Webelos) then it only takes a few minutes to talk to and test the scout to earn the scout badge. What an exciting moment for the scout to go home from his first troop meeting as a Boy Scout with a badge ready to sew onto his uniform. "Do you support just giving them the badge even if they haven't met the requirements?" No, of course I don't. Why, have I ever said that I did? I don't think so. Or are you fabricating that in order to incite controversy? And Three times is correct. 1) Verbal recognition when the award is first earned 2) The actual award at as soon as possible (the next troop meeting) 3)The pocket or wall certificate at the next quarterly Court of Honor Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Perhaps if you made that decision they would be, however do you know of any chapters of any of the organizations you mentioned who are actually Charter Organizations in the BSA?

"Active" varies with each individual. The BSA has as one of it's Aims for a scout to develop in physical fitness. We have a scout promise to be physically strong. Yet many leaders want to punish a scout for being in organized sports, when in fact the scout is fulfilling his obligation that he swore to in the Scout Oath. Each Scout has his own unique obligations to school, family, scouting and other activities. As sout leaders we are not charged with determining what those priorities should be. We are charged with having a scouting program available for him to participate in and grow in. Leaders need to respect the individidual scout enough to sit down and learn about his life and interests and to help the youth incorporate scouting in his life. We do a better job when we focus on delivering a program that scouts will want to attend rather than counting heads of who is there and who is not. "Green Bar" Bill Hillcourt often reminded leaders "if you expect scouts to attend then you need to be the best game in town"! Are your meetings the most fun a scout can have? Are you more fun to a scout than a video game? More interesting than a computer? More active than running around the neighborhood with friends? Sure the scout needs to feel an obligation to participate, but we as leaders are responsible for creating and nurturing that feeling. A good leader has better tools to do that with than threats and attendance rules. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This definition of "religious" fits the BSA. "2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or reverence for, a deity or deities" As a member Of the Boy Scouts of America you are required to accept the existence of God and to do service to Him. Who your God is, by what name and how you worship Him is left open to the member. This stance by the BSA is accepted and endorsed by nearly every religion in the world. While not requiring any member to belong to a formal religion, by requiring the acceptance and serving of God, Scouting is religious. So for a church, which sponsors a scout unit or units, to use it's scouting program in performance of that churches beliefs in duty to God is not abuse. As you and I both pointed out the church cannot require unit members who are not church members to participate in that activity, but many scout units are made only of members from the charter organization. This is not abuse of the program as it was characterized by a few. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Every level of scouting has specific responsibilities and oligations. The responsibility for establishing rules and policies for scouting such as advancement, safety, membership and uniforming is the Exececutive Board of the BSA. The obligation to follow those rules is the Unit's. One might have no problem with a unit setting its own uniform standard, but the fact is it's not their uniform and not within their authority or responsibility to do. The uniform is a trademark symbol of the BSA, and it is not the unit's, nor any individual's right to determine the standards of wear except for the specific elememnts that the BSA allows them to choose, such as the neckerchief. We all agreed as leaders to accept the obligation to follow the rules, policies, and program methods of the BSA. A Scout is Trustworthy Bob White

I wouldn't ask a bunch of questions. I suggest you teach the Webelos to watch and evaluate. Do the scouts work in boy lead patrols? Does the Scoutmaster only talk to the troop at the end of the meeting? Do they do hands on activities or talking head instruction? Do they have New Scout Patrols? How is their behavior? Do they wear uniforms with pride? Are they doing scout stuff or just playin basketball or bombardment etc.? Ask, When will we get to earn our scout Badge? (The right answer is , first meeting) When is the next campout? (right answer is a specific date in the next 30-days.) When are troop meetings? (Answer: Weekly-same night-same time-90 minutes) What is the first merit badge we will earn? (Answer: what are you interested in?) Just my 2-cents Bob White

Hi Pamaha, A couple points to make clear. "Sounds like B.W.'s take on scouting does not allow for opinions and that everything is "in the training or guide book". So why have these discussions?" A more accurate explaination is that I feel the scouting program is best determined and delivered according to the Boy Scouts of America and not by the personal opinions of total strangers. I do not want you to operate a scouting program according to my personal opinion, anymore than I would want you to run it by FOG's or any one else's. I would hope you woulf want to deliver the scouting Program according to how scouting says it should be done, and that information is available to every leader in the BSA resources. Do I think some of these discussions are uneeded? Sure I do. There are posters here who would wnat you to do what they do rather than what scouting says to do and I see no reason for that. You, like the rest of us signed an agreement to follow the BSA program. If everyone would keep their word them the majority of these threads would be unnecessary. Next.

"So when 39 out of 40 Scouts show up regularly for meetings but the 40th only comes twice a year, that indicates that there is a problem with the meetings? Interesting logic." I attended an Eagle Court of Honor last weekend. The minister, who was the guest speaker, told of how this was a bitter-sweet moment for him. His family was made up of basketball players. His dad played pro ball, his siblings were all-stars at Michigan State, but he wanted to be a Boy Scout. He begged his parents to take him to join. He bought his own Handbook and started teaching himself the scout skills. He was anxious to join a troop and learn with other scouts. He finally got to join and one evening was on his way to his first troop meeting. As he walked past his family as they played basketball together they asked him if he really wanted to go to scouts. He assured him that this is what he wanted and not basketball. He got to the school were they met and walked in the gym for the meeting ready to be a real scout. What was the troop doing? Playing basketball. They played for the entire 45 minutes. When he asked the scoutmaster if this was normal, he was told that this is what the boys liked to do. The young man never went back. Can 1 scout be right and 39 be wrong? Absolutely! Good scouting is about following the scouting program, not about doing what the majority belives is scouting. Bob White

FOG, Homosexuality is not the subject of the thread. others may follow you down that sideroad in order to avoid the actual topic. I will not. Ed, You also didn't know about Patrol Activities, SPLs Choosing troop officers, Ages and Stages, and a myriad of other scout topics. I am not surprised by this one. The point of the thread stands. Nothing in the BSA program prohibits a church from using their scout unit to advance the mission of their religion. This is not misuse of the BSA program it is the use of the BSA program. No one who disagrees with that point has yet to provide a shred of evidence to support their opinion. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouting is a faith-based organization which requires members to accept values based on religious concepts. It requires youth members to perform measurable acts of duty to God, it has as officers in it's units Chaplains and Chaplian Aides, it prohibits membership to adults not accepting a religious principles statemement and the religious responsibilities it requires. What part of this doesn't seem to make it appear religious Ed? Granted it does not support a specific religion but it definitely requires its members to be religious. Bob White

Who to start with... FOG, In New Leader Essentials and in the Scoutmaster Fundamentals, depending on which if any training you attended, you were told that the values of scouting are encased in the scouting ideals represented by the Promise or Oath, The Law, or Law of the Pack, the Motto and Slogan. No secret books just information that you evidently never chose to learn. Ed, I'm surprised to hear that you had no idea that scouting was a religious organization. Are you familiar with the Adult Leader Aplication form? Have you ever read or signed the Declararation of Religious Principles? "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that home and the organization or group with wich the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principles and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership." Perhaps the words Duty to God, or A Scout is Reverent hint at the importance of religion in a scouting life? Scouting has always been a religious organization. I'm glad you are choosing to use the forum as a way to deepen your knowledge of scouting. Growth is always a good thing. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

We have always included them in with the adult leaders. It gives us opportunity to train them in advanced campiong skills that they can then share with the Patrol Leaders and we have more opportunity to counsel them in leadership skills. Bob White

Hi again Pamaha. I too think it's a good question, that's why I wanted you to ask it of yourself first, because I was certain you already knew the answers. Question "What about a scout who does not attend regular weekly meetings, does not assist in the ONLY yearly fund raising event and then signs up for merit badge college?" Answer "I realize there is no correlation between participating in a fund raiser and earning a merit badge." Question "What is acceptable attendance on the part of a scout? Is there a BSA guideline?" Answer "Our guide book also states that a scout must notify his PL if he is going to be absent and any scout who has 2 unexcused absences shall be brought up for discussion at the PLC as to his interest in being a part of the troop. Perhaps our guide book is not in sync with BSA" Pamaha, You know that using attendance as a means of blocking advancement is wrong, You have a pretty good idea that your troop rule book does not jive with scouting. You took the time to learn the rules in your troop guide book have you read the manuals for troop scouting? Have you looked for the answers in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster Handbook, The Advancement Committee Policies and procedures book. What did you find? You are willing to turn to take the advice of total strangers, but have you turned to the official BSA resources yet? It's not that I don't want to help, but I want you to know that the answers you ask are in in Basic Adult Leader Training and common BSA resources, and should be used first. Rather than insist on participation we need to focus on delivering a program that scouts want to attend. Rather than look for ways to punish, we need to talk to scouts to find out why they are not attending and how we can do a better job to make scouting work for them individually. Scouting is delivered not in a group but one scout at a time. What do you know about the needs and characteristics that motivate this particular scout? Some posters (one or two) will try to sidetrack this discussion to make this seem a personal attack, it is not, ignore them. The issue is not what anyone of us think the rules or the program should be. It's about what the program IS. You will find that in the resources and training of the BSA, not in manufactured troop rules or in the personal opinions of any forum. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Having trouble staying on topic? I didn't say shared goals did I? I said shared values.