Bob White

There is no scouting regulation that prohibits a licensed driver from driving himself (or herself)to a meeting no matter what their age. BW

"You're absolutely right Bob, I have no idea what that fellow from the Council Training Committee was talking about." I knew it was only a matter of time before we agreed on something. "Of course, the way that the old course ran from start to finish with one group of people broken into patrols was far different than the new system that goes in fits and starts with the patrols existing for a week or two before vanishing to be reformed with different people for the next phase of training." Which proves my point. There is no scout leader training that is structured in the way you suggest. No wonder your council is concerned. "Of course, the District Training staff that's been working as a team for 20 years doesn't have a clue about training people." You have more direct contact with them so I will presume that this is an accurate portrayal that you offer. It is more likely that they have the teaching skills but have failed to keep up with today's training programs from the description you have provided. Bob White

It is highly unlikely that the Council Training committee has any problem with a Disrtict developing esprit d'corps in Scoutleader basic training courses such as Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and Introduction to Outdoor Skills, since both include adult Patrols and fun as part of the course design. More likely the District training team has taken it upon themselves to amble away from the course syllabus and learning goals expanding it into the older Wood Badge topics. This would get the attention of any good councl Training Chair. The new training courses are designed as a continuum with each step acting as a stepping stone to the next. To stray from the specific modules of any course does not serve the volunteer or the prigram. I'm sure if the participants got the correct course presented, and developed strong fellowship, the council would have no concerns what-so-ever. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Boy lead does not mean adult leaders abdicate responsibility. Troop A, and Troop B have the identical problem and it has nothing to do with whether or not they have troop rules. he problem is that neither is following the scouting program, methods or policies. The BSA program is not based on Eagle counts, nor does it allow youth to determine membership, and there are specific steps in the BSa on dealing with violence, and training for adults on when to step in. All these things are currently covered in BSA program leader handbooks, Scout leader training and in the Guide to safe scouting. It's not that the units you described need more or fewer rules, what they ned is to follow the scouting program. No unit manufactured reules will make them better at that. The only thing that will help is a committment to learn and use the scouting program. Bob White

KS gave some excellent advice, I can only add to use positve landmarks not negative ones to determine if you are on track. Do not worry about what not to do. Focus on what you should do, and how to do it the scouting way. Bob white

Adults have 3 uniform options, the Field Uniform, the Activity Uniform, and the Dress Uniform. The expedition had is designed for the Activity Uniform. The Activity Uniform is; a scout related shirt (it can be the red polo, a Scout camp shirt, a troop shirt a BSA national supply t-shirt, a scout event t-shirt, etc.), Official pants or shorts, official belt, official socks, a Troop cap (or a BSA visor cap or BSA expedition hat) is optional as with the field uniform. Bob White

I would be remiss if I did not remind the members of this forum that FOG obtained access to this board again only by lying about his identity to the forum moderator. Please keep that in mind when he chooses to expound on matters of ethical behavior. The Field Director has not asked the DE to anything illegal or immoral, he is only showing bad managerial judgement. Everyday, many people have to follow through on bad decisions made by management in every imaginable occupation. To say that doing so is unethical is nonsense. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Pat, Which committee there are lots of them. Troop committee is only one and you did not specify any. BW

As much as I agree with you Eamonn, and I agree 100%, this is not going to be your call as the District Commissioner although it will be your headache after it is done. As DSteele would probably tell you, your DE has little choice but to do as his supervisor tells her. But she also knows that she will have little time to actual give to the unit to insure its success. The only person with the ability to affect this before it happens is your District Chair who is a member of the executive committe. and the representatives of your District who sit on that committee. You Chairman needs to convince them that this is not the answer for your community. if The Nit wants to do this let him make some other District his hero. Assuming that this unit is formed, it's chances of survival are unlikely. So next year after it fails you will have another unit and several members to make up for. What your FD is trying to do is band-aid management and it's unfortunate that you have been saddled with it. I have done a lot of jobs in scouting Eamonn, DC is the only one I do not wish to do again. Good Luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are two youth uniforms in the Boy Scout program. The field Uniform and the Activity Uniform. The Visored cap and the Campaign hat are approved uniform pieces for the field uniform. The expedition hat as the catalog says is approved for the activity uniform. Scouts may salute while in either uniform whether wearing a hat or not. Hope this answers your question. Bob White

Excellent post Mike F, The documentation on the purpose of the BORs as you have accurately described them is in the Scoutmaster Handbook and in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Your example of how a BOR should work is right on the money. Bob White

The conversations we have had where I said that the once signed the advancement could not be taken away pertained to two situations. In regard to Merit Badges, the merit badge counselor. In regards to other advancement no individual can remove advancement that has been signed and I have used as a resource the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual for both situations. No individual can negate advancement but the Board of Review (BOR) can. I have also said, using the same resource, that a BOR cannot retest, but can question the scout on how the advancement was earned and can choose to not advance the scout under specific conditions of completing the requirement as explained in the handbook. There is A big difference. The BOR cannot ask the scout to tie a clove hitch but can ask the scout what he did to complete that requirement to tie a clove hitch. For instance, the scout could say that he put up a clothes line at camp and attached one end to a tree with a clove hitch. If however he said the Troop instructor held up a knot and asked what it was and when he said clove hitch so the instructor signed his book, the BOR would be within its authority to tell the scout that the requirement is that HE tie the knot not the instructor. The board will talk to the SM and give the scout an opportunity to pass the requirement according to the handbbok. The BOR then talks to the scoutmaster and explains that he/she has the responsibility to train others to properly advance the scouts. Tell the SM that the BOR expects the scouts to do what is in the Handbook, and no differently. Does this explain the difference? Bob White

As I have said before the Advancement regulations do not allow the BOR to re-test but it does allow the board to ask how the requirement was met. If the scout did not do what the reqirement specified, the Board (upon a unanimous decision) can have the scout complete the requirement as explained in the handbook. Then return for his advancement. This is a two way street however. Which is why committee members do BORs, they need to correct the problem where it began and make sure that the advancement process is managed properly by the adult leaders, specifically the Scoutmaster, who is ultimately responsible for the troop program. Bob White

combsc, The development team consisted of Banchard group, 50 scout volunteer contributing authors and members the national Boy Scout training committee under the pro advisor John Alline who was at the time the director of Boy Scout Leadership Training at national. The money goes to Blanchard and for movie rights only. To know if this money was spent wisely one needs to attend the course, or talk to those who have. I feel it is spent very well. Bob White PS, Glad to hear you are a Bobwhite.

What is the current rate of exchange for a boys character in the cost of stamps and phone calls today. How much might you spend before you would decide that a boy wasn't worth that much? A half doven stamps and a half dozen un-answered calls might cost what? $3? Is a boy not worth that anymore? How does one take up an inactive spot in a patrol? The patrol is still free to recuit other boys. Why would a unit even consider removing a boy until A) He was a danger to himself or others B) his activity caused an undo hardship on the ability to deliver a program C) his membership expired? There is nothing to gain and a boy to lose. Pamaha, If a scout leader signed the "be active in your troop and Patrol" and "Actively serve in a leadership position" then your board has two people to review, the scout and the Scoutleader. In the situation you described you have every right to require that he go back and fulfill the requirements as stated in the handbook. Then the committee needs to discuss with the leader why the requirements are being signed when they have not been met. If the scout is in the troop to become Eagle then someone needs to explain to him how that is done. He must complete the requirements as eaxplained in the handbook, no more and certainly no less. If those two requirements had not been done you could review the rest of the requirements and tell the scout you look forward to talking with him again when they have been completed to determine if he will advance. Bob White

Wood Badge programs vary widely throughout the world. Even in the BSA Wood Badge has gone through many revisions. In fact the Wood Badge course I took in 1980 was much different than the Wood Badge course taken by scouters in 1988 (hmmm does that make my version better because it was older or does its age make it "more traditional" than the 19988 version? And the course in the 70's was different than what I took in 1980 Perhaps that was the most traditional one if you don't take into consideration the ones before that or Baden Powell's course which was unlike any of the BSA courses. Then of course there was Cub Leader Wood Badge which was based on training and training administration and not anything like boy Scout Wood Badge. As combsc points out there are many positive things about Wood Badge for 21st Century one which I will ad is the explaination and use of situational management which harkens back to B-P's leadership philosophy that no two scouts are alike and require the leader to adjust to each individual and not try to lead everyone the same way. By the way management was a very strong theme in 1980 when I took the course. The trap I think combsc fell into is that his frame of reference only goes back as far as his own personal experience and he needs to realize that WB existed in other variations long befi=ore he ever cam to know it. "Traditional" by his standards is a more modern way to some and the old way to others. Perhaps a more Big Picture view needs to be adopted to fully appreciate the features of the current course. (Which by the way will be known as the traditional course by todays scouters when WB takes on it's next variation years from now.) Bob White Bob White

An interesting opinion combsc, I am curious as to what parts of the leadership training you felt were not in line with B-Ps philosophy or techniques. Please share some examples with us. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Matuawarrior is a Bobwhite? My feathery litle chest swells with pride! Bob White

Bob, you whine whereas I grumble and grouse. There's a big difference. Whining is usually accompanied by a pout and a stomping of a foot" 12-hours later and that is the best come back you have? No Vulgarity? No fictional story of how BP would have done it in his day? No blaming it on parents? Is everything all right at the FOG house or has the flu got you down? To say you just grumble and grouse is like saying Michael Jordan just shot basketball a little. Now it's just not the scouting movement you don't like, you have gripes with the LDS Church, the Catholic Church and Judaism. Next thing you know you will be condemning the NRA, after all they accept members of the KKK. Is nothing to your liking in this world, or the next? (No pouts or foot stomping here) Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not quite Proud Eagle. But lets wait to hear Pamahas response before I answer. If we don't hear back from her tonight thenI will post my response tomorrow. BW

Bob White whines, "The BSA has designed a modified program for the LDS Church, and if you are a leader in an LDS unit then that is the way you should deliver the program." Doesn't a whine have to have a complaint at its core? All the whiners I met were fairly consistent at whining. They didn't just whine about one thing the whined about everything and it was all very self-centered. Here are some examples that I have heard over the months that would be classified as whining... I think the uniform stinks:( I think the handbook stinks:( I don't like the parents:( I don't like the New Scout Patrol:( I don't like the shoulder loop colors:( I don't like the First Class Emphasis The Eagle Rank is too easy Now that is some big time Major League whining. Several posters on this forum...well, actually, a few posters on this forum......Well, actually, just YOU talk like that. On the plus side you do it more and better than anyone I have ever read. You may not ever be right, but I have to admire your consistency. By the way, many Jewish units do not camp on Friday night. Does it make for shorter campouts? Perhaps. But every Scout promises to perform their Duty to God and to be reverent. Didnt you do that too? Bob White

There is no such thing as "a decision that rests soley in the hands of the Scoutmaster" since the decision on who will serve as the Scoutmaster is in the hands of the committee chair and the Charter Organization. Bob White

Fog is incorrect in portraying me as saying "we should do everything by the same book". To begin with there is no one book. There are several books that are each program sensitive. Secondly, what I have said is that you should deliver the program the way the BSA has designed it. The BSA has designed a modified program for the LDS Church, and if you are a leader in an LDS unit then that is the way you should deliver the program. If you lead a trsitional unit then you should follow the program as the BSA has designed it for that program. A little truth in your posts would greatly enhance thier impact FOG. Bob White

It is mainly a matter of committmemnt. The LDS church ahs made a committment to use the BSA program in EVERY one of its locations. They have adopted scouting as their official youth program. Because of that the BSA have coopersted with them to make what is really minor adaptations to fit their specific doctrine. This is a courtesy that comes with making such a huge committmemnt to the program. Bob White

Pamaha, Before I give a complete response I need to know if ALL requirements were signed off (except for BOR) before he came before the board. BW