Bob White

Hi Barry, A troop requires A scoutmaster A Committee Chair 2 Committee Members A Charter Organization Representative All twenty-one years of age or older. 18-year to 20-year olds can only be Assistant Scoutmasters. 1+1+2+1=4 Welcome to new math. That's because the COR (and only the COR)is allowed to hold two positions. So a troop needs 5 specific adult positions filled minimum, using 4 to 5 adults. In addition it needs 5 registered youth Bob White

Hi Denleaderdad, i have sent you a private message. Please check your mail. BW

Scouts are not under the supervision of the BSA when traveling to and from troop meetings. They are not required to travel in pairs, they are not required to be under the supervision of someone 21 or older. These rules pertain to troop trips and outings. Driving to a troop meetig is diffreent than attending a council or district event. Transporting yourself is different than driving on a trip with other youth while under the supervision of the troop. Nowhere do the rules restrict a licensed driver transporting themselves. Nowhere are Venturers held to a different standard as was posted. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's important that scouts learn to use the resources available to them. while it is not required that they read the merit badge book, it is recommended in their Scout Handbook that they do. The reason is simple. Can you get to a new destination without a map? Sure you can, but you might take a wrong road or miss somthing that you might have enjoyed because you went around it. Just as a scout can advance without ever reading the Boy Scout Handbook, they can earn the merit badge without reading the merit badge pamphlet. It's more difficult to advance that way but it can be be done. Teaching the scouts to find and read the manual is an important lesson for future tasks.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry Key Stuck(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And if you read the entire passage you will see that every requirement centers on groups and passengers. There is nothing grey here. These rules are for trips and outings when transporting small groups and has nothing to do with an individual transporting themselves to meetings. And where does it make allowance for Venturing but a restriction for Boy Scouts as the original poster stated?

And if you read the entire passage you will see that every requirement centers on groups and passengers. There is nothing grey here. These rules are for trips and outings when transporting small groups and has nothing to do with an individual transporting themselves to meetings. And where does it make allowance for Venturing but a restriction for Boy Scouts as the original poster stated?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree Packsaddle that events are another thing altogether. The orignal poster said that a 17-year-old Venture Scout could drive to meetings but 17-yr-old Boy Scouts could not. I have no idea where that belief came from. Dave, The back of the tour permit is not relevent. we are only talking about 17-year-olds driving themselves to meetings. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I doubt that your CO has the authority to tell a licensed driver that they cannot drive themselves to a meeting. In any case the question is, does the BSA prohibit a licensed driver from transporting himself to a meeting. I know of no regulation against it. Does anyone? Bob White

I think that sounds terrific Big Dog. Congratulations to the scouts on earning their own way. Have a great time. BW

We are cabin camping near a lake this weekend. Had we anticipated such mild weather conditions we would not have reserved cabins. I guess the adults will tent and we will let the scouts have the cabins......or maybe..... Anyway we have some disaster professionals from ESDA coming to teach injury make-up to the older scouts while the new scouts learn some more first aid techniches. The we will brin the patrols together and have the New Scout Patrol diagnose and treat the injuries that the older scouts have reproduced. Next the regular scouts will build some large scale pioneering projects while the NSP learns the basics of lashings and the they will go outside to experience the projects the older scouts built. Finally the regular and venture patrols will learn more advanced mapping skills using topos of the area we have received, while the NSP plays the compass game and makes plans for their 5-miler. At night we are watching Return of Titans and Follow me Boys while we scarf down some Boy Scout Popcorn. Should be alot of fun.

Again it is important to remember that the G2SS is only referring to transporting groups, and does not place any restrictions on licensed drivers transporting themselves to meetings as stated by the original poster or his one supporter. Bob White

Actually NW, the previous Scoutmaster training was also divided into two separate courses. The classroom session (Scoutmaster Fundamentals), and the outdoor session (Outdoor Experience). Prior to that there was SBLT (Scoutmaster Basic Leadership Training) Which included the classroom session and then the separate Outdoor Experience course. But you are correct the clasroom sessions and the outdoor sessions are and were separate courses. We have had patrols that have stayed together through the entire basic training process but it is not and has not been a requirement of the program to do so. So I still do not know what existing course he was refering to. FOG referred to a patrol existing for a week or two and then reorganizing, that is not a part of any current syllabus. The weekly "Scoutmaster's School" he refers to is not a part of any current syllabus. So when he comments about the council's concern over the district's training program it has nothing to do with comraderie as he implies. Based on what FOG has described I'm sure it stems from a real concern over what is being taught and how it is taught in that district. Bob White

The general rule Ron and Scoutingagain is 18 years of age for driving on activities, however there are events where a licensd 16-yr-old can drive other scouts under certain conditions. No restriction however are put on licensed drivers who are driving themselves to meetings. Bob

A couple posters on another thread seem to believe that a licensed teenaged driver is not allowed to drive himself to troop meetings. They base this on the restrictions for transporting groups in the G2SS. Out of curiosity do any other posters believe this to be the rule? Bob White

First, this really isn't the point of eamonn's thread, so before you lead it further astray I will move it to a new thread. Second, to this point you have displayed your willingness to argue any point, on anything, with anybody, regardless of your total ignorance of the topic. So why should this be any different. Eamonn I apologize for picking up on his fable about driving and I will move this to another thread, hopefully he will follow and leave this one alone. Bob

DSteele We have another situation where FOG will argue only because it is me on the other end. Would you please explain to him that the rules he quotes from are in reference to group member transportation as referenced in the G2SS and that drivers transporting themselves to and from meetings are not controlled by the BSA. Thanks, Bob White

I believe some very inaccurate information has ben presented as truth in this thread without any factual support. I think it's important that we if present something as being the truth we should be able to verify some way. FOG has said there is a current BSA training course where "patrols existing for a week or two before vanishing to be reformed with different people for the next phase of training." He says he identified which course that was, but I am unable to find that post. Many posters here are involved in training and have taken training. Can anyone identify a BSA course that fits this description, or find where FOG named it? Thanks for the help. Bob White

Eamonn, You are in a tough spot. Unless the unit is started properly it will genrate the membership increase you FD wants and a tone of difficult work for you and the District Commissioner. Unfortunately the FD will never have to worry about that. I think cowardly describes his actions quite well. This is still your community and the council respresentatives in your District do have a say in this. I see this as a very slipshod way to give the appearance of service to youth without providing the structure and starength to make it lasting. If this is going to happen then you have no choice but to make it happen as correctly as possible. Help to find the needed adults and resources to make it work. Then make your dissatisfaction known to the Scout executive and the rest of the Council Board. This is your FD's job but it is your community. Make sure he understands that distinction. Good Luck, FOG the rule you site is for drivers transporting youth members. A Licensed driver can drive himself to any meeting he wants. Bob White

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=36672#id_36851 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=3347&p=4#id_23574 Bob White

Sorry FOG, you seemed to have lost track of your own converstation. You said "the way that the old course ran from start to finish with one group of people broken into patrols was far different than the new system that goes in fits and starts with the patrols existing for a week or two before vanishing to be reformed with different people for the next phase of training." I answered that there is no such training structure in a BSA Scout leader training course. You said "Sure there is>" I asked you to name one. You have not done that yet. Bob White

Mark, a great approach, and outstanding understanding and use scouting. BW

I do not disagree at all Barry. Keep in mind that Wood Badge is not just for Scoutmasters and so do not expect an abundance of strictly troop related information. The Patrol Method is only used in the Boy Scout program not in any of the other areas that Wood Badge is designed for. If a training faculty follows the course syllabus the participants will get the patrol method interaction that the other poster spoke of. If all they are getting is the fellowship and not covering the materials that the training is designed for as I suspect, then the Council training chair has a legitimate reason for concern Bob White

" There is no scout leader training that is structured in the way you suggest. No wonder your council is concerned." FOG says "Sure there is". Fine, which one? There are only two basic level courses designed specifically for Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters, and only one advanced course. Which one does not use patrol method? "One of our ASMs went to another district for his training, the new stuff. His "patrol" was only required to meet as a patrol once and that was before the outdoor segment. No patrol cheers, flags, or comaraderie." Thats a shame. That is also not a the fault of the training course but an error of the training team or the patrol themselves. What kept them from devloping those things? I the staff told them not to thten they made a bad decision. If the patrol chose not to then it is their own fault. Either way that was a local problem, they didn't follow the course. The problem is FOG you think the courses are flawed when in fact you have no idea what the course content should be. You only know the little bit you have done, and hearsay from others, and it appears that you you saw was not the course the BSA released. So you have no real grounds to judge the BSA courses on. EagleDad is right, the courses are shorter and there is less material on Patrol Method but it is still used and covered. There are updates coming on all levels. The Cub Basic has just had updates released on every cub course and on New Leaders Essentials. I expect the same to happen with the SM training. But that does not excuse a Training Team from not following the current program. Yes National does allow local adaptation, but a good Council Training Chair would see that the content outlined for each specific course gets covered and that programs do not stray into other training module arears. Bob White