Bob White

It is the emblem of the program affiliation and can be worn on the right sleeve of any Venturing uniform, whether the official BSA supplied uniform, or one determined by an individaul crew. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In that case scoutldr, I invite you to answer as a parent.

As I see it the biggest factors are time and density. The Eagle Award was not that well know in it's first 5 years as it is today. It took several years and and thousands of Eagle Scouts for it to achieve the degree or recognition that it enjoys. Now after over 90-years and well over a million Eagle Scouts later, it is an awrd reccgnized throughout the country. Even when Explorers existed it never enjoyed the membership numbers that Boy Scouting had, and it was still a very young program in comparison. The recognition due the Silver Award will come from endurance of time, density of the bearers to population, and the recognition they bring to the award by the lives they live. It's a young award and it needs time to mature. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Why don't they ever ask "The Field" about what we think would work? And there is the rub. You have assumed two things that are incorrect. 1-That there decision was made without the input of front line volunteers. 2-That there is an ivory tower. First, there are too many things going on in the BSA for the professional staff at the National headquarters to do it all. Every scouting division is made up of volunteer committees, some with as many as 100 members, made of scouts and scouters from across the country. They make the decisions, the professional staff enacts those plans. You probably have volunteers in your council who participate on these committees, you just don't know it. This is a common them and us attitude and it is groundless. Next the Ivory Tower. Next time you are in Irving, Texas vist the National BSA Headquarters, believe me it is no ivory tower. The more you learn about the scouting program the more you will realize it is not them and us. It's just us. Bob White

If you were a unit commissioner you would look at a variety of characteristics of a unit to evaluate its health. Memership growth, retention, advancement, leadership, use of scouting methods, are a few of the things you look at. So lets play Unit Commissioner. Would you evaluate these units as Healthy, Cautionary, In Danger. What would you recommend they do in the future. Troop A does not use First Class emphasis or New Scout Patrol and has has lost more than 50% of its membership in the last 18-months. It currently has 7 scouts 3 of the scouts joined in the last 18-months one is Tenderfoot the others two have not yet earned a rank. Only one current scout has advanced in a over a year and he is a tenderfoot. There are 10 assistant scoutmasters and 3 committee members. The troop camps at least once a month and attends summercamp. Troop B uses First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrols, has 34 scouts. Two scouts have quit in two years. Of the 8 new scouts that joined last year all 8 are still active. All are Second Class, most expect to be First Class by April. The troop recruits aprox 6 to 8 scouts each year and loses 5 to 6 scouts a year due to aging out at 18 years old. Currently there are 5 active Eagle scouts in Troop B and 3 working on projects this year. Troop B has 4 assistant scoutmasters and 13 committee members. The troop camps 9 times a year plus summer camp and one high adventure trip a year for scouts First Class and up. So, as the Unit Commissioner for these two troops what do you do?

"Is the First Class Emphasis Program required?" What is required is that we provide a scouting program. We have some leaders who use the First Class Emphasis and New Scoout Patrol (they are inter-dependent) and some that don't. Why should it be used or not used is best determined by the results the two types of leadership have had. As we know evmori has spoken strongly against the use of First Class Emphasis and avoids the New Scout Patrol structure recommended by the BSA. 18 months ago evmori posted he a had 18 scouts and even posted jis web-site. I looked at it recently. It was updated Dec. 5, 2003. So evmori how well has your avoidance of the recommended program served the scouts in your community? 1)How many scouts have joined the troop in the last two years? 2)How many of them have you retained in the program? 3)What is their rank today? You have challenged nearly every poster supporting the following of the BSA program with the defense of 'it is only a suggestion not a rule' and 'Am I supposed to follow blindly' so share with us the results of your scouting experience in leading a troop without using the recommended troop operation. Bob White

So was the problem that the man who sat in the audience in a uniform, or was it the inexperience of the cubmaster. In other words if the same man sat in the audience in uniform with a more experienced Cubmaster running the meeting would it still have been a problem? I would bet not. I have to admit I do not understand how having a person in the audience in uniform could confuse anyone about who is in charge. Didn't the audience realize that the person up front talking was the leader? As far as the amount od stuff on the uniform, as far as you kow more people looked at him and thought "what wonderful experiences he must of had as a scout leader" rather than seeing him as a general. As far as not knowing who he was the Cubmaster was free to walk over and introduce himself wasn't he? As far as his attitude being diruptive it would have been the same whether he was in uniform or not, wouldn't it? Bob White

Forgive the hour but the flu isn't allowing me to sleep very comfortably. OK so here is my flu induced plan. Since some scouters have difficulty remembering the current color system I recommend we base the tab colors on the initials of the program... Cubs-Crimson Boy Scouts- Burnt Sienna Varsity- Vermillion Venturing- Violet District/Council-Deep Coral National- Neutral Plan-B would be to have any one who is unfamiliar with the meaning of the color shoulder tabs to ask the wearer or another person in uniform what they mean. I know Plan-B soumds nuts, but I am under the weather at the moment as well as sleep deprived.

Every volunteer signed an agreement to follow the program. Each year at the charter renewal the unit re-signs that agreement. Whether you follow it blindly or with your eyes open is a personal choice, but we each promised to follow it. Bob White

First Class Emphasis is about the the opportunity for activity and advancement offered to New Scouts to hook them on the program. So the measure that needs to be considered is How many new Scouts joined the troop and how many have stayed in. So perhaps evmori you will share 1) How many new scouts have joined the troop in the last two years? 2) how many are still in the troop? 3) What rank are they now? I think these answers will give us the information we need to determine if First Class Emphasis is important or not. I for one look forward to your numbers. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As I reported to this forum in the past, I contacted the national office and they were unable to find the statistics that were used when the First Class Emphasis was introduce in the early 1980s. But as they pointed out whether you buy into the statistics or not, First Class Emphasis is the current program as presented to the boys in the Boy Scout Handbook, and to the Scoutmasters and Asst. Scoutmasters in the BSA Leadership training. To those who use and follow the scouting program statistics are not needed, to those who continue to avoid learning and using the program no statistic will change them. Hops, Dave didn't say that it was true in every case. What we do know is, it's more often true than not. It would not be wise to ignore any probability that wasn't 100%. Perhaps a better measure would be to compare two units, one that uses the First Class Emphasis and one that does not. I would be happy to share my experience with you, perhaps someone who has been a scoutmaster that has not used First Class Emphasis would share the troop membership trend they have experienced. Perhaps evmori would participate? He has often said how he does not use the recommended Patrol structure, OR First Class Emphasis. How did the unit he serves thrive outside of the recommended program? Why don't you ask him? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The first three ranks of the Boy Scout program are designed to to be managed by the adult leaders. First Class Emphasis is not a race for the scouts to see how fast they can advance. It is a program structure for the adult leaders. If the program for the new scouts is not active enough and organized enough to provide scouts the opportunity to learn practice and apply the requirements needed to achieve First Class in 12 to 14 months then the troop program is not sufficient to retain a boy in scouting. for scouts other than the New Scout patrol the BSA has a monthly theme structure that takes the regular patrols and venture patrols and provides for theme a monthly program that progresses form a review of existing skills to an introduction of related merit badges. It's a program. It has a structure that has been been developed, tested and grows in challenge with the age of the scout. And it only works if it is used. Bob White

Well the troop is off to a great weekend...without me. The Flu bug bit Tuesday night and so I'm sitting this one out. I'm hoping if I feel well enough tomorrow that I can drive up and spend part of the day helping out. Don't know which I want more, to be able to go or to just feel that well. Home sick wishing I was homesick, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If I was a Cub Leader and a sibling was wearing his Boy Scout uniform to the meeting, I'd get him involved. I I was a Troop Leader and a sibling came to a Court of Honor in his Cub uniform, I'd tell him how sharp he looked, talk with him about his advancemncement and encourage him to keep working toward his AOL. I don't see a problem either way. If they are in uniform someone is glad they are a scout. Whether it is the boy or the parent, I would make the most of it to encourage the boy and promote the program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Don't touch that, you have no idea where its been!

It helps to plan ahead "be prepared" as it were. The assistant scoutmasters in my son's troop make sure that one of us stays at the meeting room with the SM until all scouts are gone. That way we never have to worry about situations like eisely presented. The problem was not the locked door, or the rain, or the cold. The problem was that to many adults left too soon. If you solve the two-deep problem then you solve all the other situations similar to eisely's. Bob White

Absolutely, that Microsoft thing!

As we have dicussed before the BSA olicies and procedures for advancemnet are inthe Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. It states that there is no limit to the number of merit badges a person can counsel providing they are registered and qualified. It also suggests by the way that it recommends MB counselors be recruited and organized that a person counsel within a specific catagorie. For instance a person might do only water related merit badges such as sailing, skiing, fishing. Or someone might do camping related such as cooking, camping, survival, hiking, orienteering. As much as I understand the feeling,I cannot support the theory about the need regulate counselors to insure the scout meets multiple counselors. The BSA allows scouts to go to one person for as many MB as that person is registered and qualified to do. It would be within the rules to go to a mother or father for instance for ever MB if they were registered and qualified. Yet I have never known a scout or parent to do that. We should focus more on the qualifications of the counselor rather than on setting artificial limits. Bob White

Very close. I believe you are correct as to the limitations of the COR in a duale position. A pack would have to add as many as 4 positions to cover each age group (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos), and you are correct that a cub leader can not hold two positions within the same unit at the same time. The IH is not a position or member of Scouting. That is our designation for the executive officer of the Charter Organization. The IH can register with the BSA and would be held to the same restrictions as anyone else in that registered office. A Charter Organization (CO) must have a registered Charter Organization Representative in order to be a CO with the BSA. Bob White

Very close. I believe you are correct as to the limitations of the COR in a duale position. A pack would have to add as many as 4 positions to cover each age group (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos), and you are correct that a cub leader can not hold two positions within the same unit at the same time. The IH is not a position or member of Scouting. That is our designation for the executive officer of the Charter Organization. The IH can register with the BSA and would be held to the same restrictions as anyone else in that registered office. A Charter Organization (CO) must have a registered Charter Organization Representative in order to be a CO with the BSA. Bob White

You are correct hunt, the BSA does not want a registered adult alone with a scout who is not their sone either. And, although it may be a bad idea for a driver under 18 to drive another scout home, that does not make it the BSA's responsibility to monitor and control. That responsibility is left to the parents of the passenger and driver. If on an actual scouting trip, the parents of the passenger would be required to give written permission for their son to be with an eligible driver who is under 18.

This is information you learn when you are a unit organizer. In order to begin or maintain a charter any scout unit must have a minimum of 5 youth. If the number were to drop below that during a charter year you could expect activity from the local professional staff and the commissioner service to help you increase membership by the time your charter renewal is due. The local council can make exceptions at the time of the charter, but national will want assurance that it is a viable unit, and that membership is being worked on and expected to increase. Isn't that right Dave? Bob White

Kind of a double edged sword. You assume that a committee votes. The Committee training says that the Committee chair distributes asignments and the committee members report back at the committee meetings. The COR is the head of the scouting dept. for the Chartered Organizations. Since the COR Selects and approves ALL other leaders there is little need for them to vote even if committees voted. The COR is a communications link between the CO and the Unit. They are responsible for the delivery of the scouting program, seeing that leaders are trained, and the program and its rules are followed. The COR works in a triad with the Unit Committee Chairs and Scoutmaster, Cubmaster and or Advisor of the CO to see that every scout has the opportunity to have a successful scouting experience. Is the COR a member of the Committee? only if he or she is dual registered as such. It may not be the answer to your question but it is an accurate sumarry of the COR's relationship to the committee and unit. Hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Glad to help. BW

That is the the minimum committee size for any scout unit so it must be for reasons other than the BOR. As to a reference, district professional or your council registrar can give you that information. Bob White