Bob White

Sorry but if families are moving out then families are moving in. What a coincidence it would be if only the families from one troop moved from a community. I'm not saying that Troop A doesn't have a program. The problem is it doesn't have a scouting program? how can you tell? Becasue in a scouting program advancement happens through participation. No one is advancing. when you only have 3 new scouts to watch, how hard can it be to catch them doing something right?

First a quick terminology check. First Class First Year is an award certificate available for scouts who accomplish that rank advancement. First Class Emphasis is a program structure that makes earning First Class in the First 12 to 14 months possible. These two terms are often intertwined. I am as guilty of it as anyone. As I understood Hunt's post it sugested that those 10 events were campouts. That is not the case. Hikes, Good Turn projects, day events, all count in the 10 activities as well as campouts. As important if not more important is the program delivered at Troop meetings each week. That is where the bulk of scouting happens.

First a quick terminology check. First Class First Year is an award certificate available for scouts who accomplish that rank advancement. First Class Emphasis is a program structure that makes earning First Class in the First 12 to 14 months possible. These two terms are often intertwined. I am as guilty of it as anyone. As I understood Hunt's post it sugested that those 10 events were campouts. That is not the case. Hikes, Good Turn projects, day events, all count in the 10 activities as well as campouts. As important if not more important is the program delivered at Troop meetings each week. That is where the bulk of scouting happens.

sign me up, I am tired of the relentless attacks directed at me personally rather than the issue. And I am tired of being the only one he attacks and then getting criticized by some for defending myself. And just to keep the rcord straight Zahnada you make some unfounded comments that I would ask you to reconsider. Bob White and Fat Old Guy are two very similar people (remarkably). I do not think you will have much luck convincing many people of that. They are both very intelligent. Smart is one thing I have never claimed to be. They both have an extraordinary knowledge of scouting and scouting resources. I would be interested in what evidence yoou have to support that for the other person. They both are active scouters who I believe genuinely care about their scouts and their troops Again I would like some evidence of that. He has criticized the scouts, as well as every method an element of the program. They both have a knack for selecting a single phrase or sentence and attacking an entire post based on it. Some evidence on my part please. They both will never admit when they're wrong. NEVER? Here are just a few of my apologies. Perhaps you could find one of FOG's I could not. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=44187#id_44375 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=14410#id_14868 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=11672#id_11682 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=7042#id_7152 They both probably disagree with at least half of what I've just said. I would have to say more than half. Just because you post it does not make it true. One thing I have always tried to do on this forum is support what I claim as fact with evidence. You have chosen not to acord me the same courtesy. FOG gained access to this this forum by stealing the identity of a another poster. Something that should disgust every one on this board. I know it disgusts me. If you look the only time I confront FOG first is when he tries to imply thaat others lack integrity. (Pot calling the kettle black sort of thing). Otherwise I am on the defense. I join your petition to stop the attacks I make no apologies for defending myself or scouting. Bob White

DS, What, according to your experience and training would, Troop A need to do to keep new scouts from leaving the troop? BW

Sturgen, What you are doing is in violation of the BSA advancement policies. BORs are required to by done by no less than three members of the troop committee. What you are doing may please you and others but it is not the scouting program. It is not within the policies of the BSA and if you in fact do this you should stop. Any scout who is made to do this(and their parents) should be told that this is not approved or endorsed by the BSA program and they should be told what their options are to address this issue with the council. If you refuse to play by scouting rules have enough integrity to not call it scouting, if you want your own rules start your own program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi DS I can accept the one third rule but my experience has been a little different. It seems at any given time 1/3 of the troops units are healthy, 1/4 are in serious trouble and the balance are in the transition of either getting better or getting worse. I'm curious Dave, What information has been shared that would lead you to believe that either troop was eager to change how they do things? Bob White

"Any idea how many other Troops are within a 10 mile radius of Troop A? The problem could be there is a glut of Troops & not enough kids to go around. There were enough scouts for Troop A to have more than twice as many 18 months ago. And if there is a high enough youth population for multiple troops, then it is likely that there are enough youth availablee for this troop to grow. This is a common excuse used by leaders in troubled units, it is often teamed with other excuses such as, too many outside activities, to much homework, no parental support, it's the kids, it's the Charter Organization, the Sun was in my eyes, there was a rock in my shoe. Program, program, program. Bob White

No ed I am not out to belittle you. I am out to make a very powerful point about the use of the scouting program and the effect of the first Class Emphasis program and the New Scout Patrol. "Is the 1st Class Emphasis Program required?" No it's not, it is PROMISED to every boy in his Boy Scout Handbook and as leaders we have a RESPONSIBILITY to deliver on the promises made to the scouts. One can follow the scouting program and not use all its parts, but the fewer you use the less results you will get. You have been a vocal opponent of First Class Emphasis and the New Scout Patrol. I am saying show us the proof in the pudding. You don't use them, what are your results. It's a fair question. DSteele can tell you that retention of scouts from the time they get the Arrow of Light to through the first year of Boy Scouts is a national problem in the BSA. Troops that use the First Class emphasis will tell you that they do not have problems with retention. Troops that do not use it will tell you that boys don't like scouting, there are to many extra curricuklar activities, parents don't support the scouting activities, kids have too much homework, yadda, yadda, yadda. Ed I have been open about my support of these programs and the positive results I have gotten for 20-years. You have been adament about them not being "required" so you don't have to do them. So Ed how is recruitment and retention in your troop where First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrol are not used. You've told posters the ineffectiveness of these programs, so now tell us the effectiveness of what your troop does instead. 1)How many scouts have joined in the last three years? 2) How many are still in the troop? 3) What are their ranks? 18 months ago you posted that your troop had 17 scouts and does just fine without First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrol, so how goes it now? You bombard me with "show us" so I get the BSA reference for you. So now Ed "show us". The biggest problem in unit commissioning is convincing leaders of problem units that they have a problem. The second biggest problem is convincing them that scouting has the answer. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Good questions Ed, we don't know. What we do know is that of all the scouts who have joined Troop A in the last three years only three remain, and we know that only one has earned a rank and he is a Tenderfood after a year. if Advancement hasppens when you particpate in a scouting program the enither these three have not articipated much in two years, OR there is not much of a program to participate in. Can you think of a third option? Either way this is, as others have pointed out a unit In Danger. This troop needs only to lose 3 scouts and they will bo longer be a scout units. If they can lose more than 7 in 18 months, how long will it take them to lose 3 more? Troop B is by no means a massive committee. It's a full committee, I grant you. But it shares the workload and keeps one person from having to do it all. 1 Committee Chair 2,3,4 Advancement committee 4,5, Fundraising 6, Treasurer 7, secretary 8, Outdoor coordinator 9, Equipment coordinator 10, Webelos Resource coordinator 11, Charter rep 12, Chaplain 13, Trainer Whether or not it is needed is not the question, look at the results it brings to the scouts. Troop A's committee size is not a primary concern. The ability to retain membership and deliver a quality program is. So why does a troop have difficulty recruiting youth? population can play a role but Troop A is in a well populated area. Leadership plays a role, but Troop A is swarming with trained leaders. So what is the problem and what might change its current course. Bob White

Im not sure why you want to change the topic of the thread. If you insist on attacking me personally please consider starting a separate thread on that topic. You asked Bob, do you know of actual units that are in these situations? And I replied that anyone who has been in commissioning for any length of time knew several units in these situations. I have not run anywhere. I am right here. I answered your question directly. If you now want to ask a different question, such as, if these are actual situations, the answer is yes, but as I said they are not unique. Units that fit these descriptions are in every council, and occur in all BSA program levels. We all know it. The question is, how does a unit get in this shape and what is the solution. What is not in question is your personal opinion of me. So I see no reason to change the thread to that topic. I invite posters to continue discussing the Troops A and B. Bob White

Remember Rooster, you have no idea what all was said by anyone on day-one or any other day. You only know what the producers and editors chose to show you, in the order they chose to show it. Lesson one of TV..Reality shows are not real. Images and audio clips are manipulated for dramatic effect for the benefit of who? Lil? The other contestants? The viewers? No, for the interest of the producers and advertisers. You see what they want you to see. That is not good grouds for determining who contestants are or what they should have done. BW

Hunt, You need to re-read the the Requirements for Tenderfoot to First Class. It does not take "a number of campouts, and if they can get the boys to participate in them." It takes 3 campouts. They can each be just one night out. In fact you can reach Life scout on just 3 nights of camping. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hunt, You need to re-read the the Requirements for Tenderfoot to First Class. It does not take "a number of campouts, and if they can get the boys to participate in them." It takes 3 nights of camping. Bob White

I never said these troops were hypothetical, I said they were not unique. You incorrectly assumed they were hypothetical.

Evmori are you out there?

I can only hope you do not actually do this, and that if you do another adult makes you stop soon.

To the boys driven from scouting and those who expect their troop to keep the promise of scouting this is a very relevant thread. Those who see themselves in Troop A may wish they could make it irrelevant. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I look at Lil and see a lady whos doing fairly well in a competition that focuses on physical endurance, some degree of wit, but most importantly the ability to deceive others. With this last trait in mind, I dont think the game is really well-suited for someone who is striving to mentor exemplary behavior for youths" How is this for irony. If you take Rooster's comment, and change the gender to male, he has described Baden-Powell. Not only that but, he has described the specific traits and the situation that brought B-P to world notoriety and made him a hero to millions of boys world wide, allowing him to start the scouting program. It was his physical and mental abilities that made him the hero at Mafeking, and allowed him to win dispite overwhelming odds. So in retrospect Lil is following the example of Baden-Powell quite well. Something to think about.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm sure anyone who has spent any amount of time in commissioner service has seen units such as these. I would bet over the years DSteele has seen dozens of units such as these. It is even possible for these to be the same unit at different times in its history. The question is what makes the difference. What keeps a unit from becoming Troop A or enables it to be Troop B. What is Troop A lacking? It's not boys, they had the boys and lost them. It's not trained leadership, their SM and at least two assistants were Wood Badge trained, It's not lack of adult support, they have twice as many adults as they have scouts. So what is the problem?

Mike, You have the tools for a terrific unit commissioner or trainer. You make some great observations. I especially like your insight about the Eagles who hang around for more. In a troop that focuses on advancement rather than program, Rank becomes the goal. Once the goal is met there is nothing to keep the scout in the program and they leave. I also agree with you on the number of assistants. The only time you have too many is when you outnumber the youth. My experience has been that more often than not, lots of adults and only a few scouts is usually a camping club for adults, where they all dress up as scouts and take the boys camping. The lack of advancement would support that concern. As far as too good to be true, I cannot agree. Having been a volunteer in multiple councils Troop B is about a third of troops I have seen. Good Input Mike! Bob White

Good questions. Lets see what we can discover from advancement records. If you disregard Eagle required merit badges you see something intersesting... Each scout in Troop A has almost the identical mix of elective Merit Badges in fact 4 Scouts are absolutely identical. In Troop B the elective Merit Badges vary widely from scout to scout. Which characteristic would suggest an advancement problem? As far as the loss of scouts we need to look at The available youth population. Troop A is in a highly populate council serving over 40,000 youth. Troop B is in a smaller council serving 10,000 youth. Neither troop is associated with a military base. How would this scenario affect your unit health evaluation?

Evidently not.

Why is advancement such an important measure when looking at the health of a unit? Because advancement is not something a troop does. advancement is what happens when a scout participates in the scouting program. Advancement is the residue of good scouting. This is especially true of the first three ranks. The purpose of the troop program is to create opportunities for scouts to learn, practice and apply the skills that lead to advancement. In Troop A's situation we see only one of seven scouts advancing in almost 2 years, and he only advanced to tenderfoot after over a year in the program. More alarming is that in a three year period only three scouts who joined the troop have stayed on. What if I said that in both troops the Scoutmaster and at least two Asst. Scoutmasters were Wood Badge trained. If the leaders in both troops know the program, what has made the difference between one being In Danger, and one being Healthy? What would you do to salvage Troop A? Acco40, If the primary language is spanish, the unit needs to know that most Cub manuals and publications are available in Spanish as well as english. Next the Cubmaster and CC need to learn how to select and recruit unit leaders. A pamphlet by that same name is available free from your local council service center that will walk them through a very effective method to achieve the amount of volunteer support needed for a healthy Pack. I invite posters to continue with their view of the health staus of the two troops and their the problems they identify. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a member of a commissioning team wingnut what do you see as the problems. How would you rate the status of the units. How could they be helped by the District?