Bob White

I am sorry you have chosen that attitude. What evidence is there that what you are doing is working? I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens. Bob White

Ed, if you really owe me one then make the needed changes to save that troop, and give those scouts a scouting program. Then we can call it even. My point has been Ed that every time I support the First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrol you shoot it down. You have claimed it ineffective and you do a better job. Based on what evidence Ed? Your troop is about to die and you are still too stubborn and hung up on your own ideas to see it. Your unit isn't recruiting well Your program doesn't retain scouts Your program doesn't encourage even the most basic advancement in scouting skills Your merit badges are nearly identical for every scout You are bloated with adult support yet there is no sign of a scouting program other than campouts. Stilll you refuse to embrace the scouting program structure even though you have been a scouting trainer. It makes no sense other than to serve as a warniing to others. Scout units that follow the program succeed, units that DO NOT follow the program FAIL. It is unfortunate that you have lead this group of scouts to a cliff and seem perfectly willing to lead them over the edge. I am always sorry to see any boy leave scouting , but I am saddened more by the number of boys who join and are refused a scouting program by the adult leaders. I hope you will change your ways if for no other reason than to try and prove me wrong. Good Luck, Bob White

Mike, You raise a good point but troop A is a real troop also, and since we have the attention, if not the belief of the scoutmaster, I had hoped we could make a difference there first. Dave is in a tough spot, without the support of the committee of the Scoutmaster there is little he can do. It's a shame whenever any unit folds and it almost always has to do with the egos of the leaders. Dave unless you can convince the Charter organization that the solution is training so that everyone knows the scouting way of doing things this unit is going to self-destruct around you. You might bring in an objective outside resource to help. I recommend the District Executive or District Commissioner. As always feel free to private message me if you would like some help without the static of some of the negative posters that my posts generate.

Sturgen, Since we have identified the sin of misspelling, what are the feelings about posters who use initials to express obscenities toward other posters? Do we accept the obscenity but condemn the typos and homophones? I just want to make sure we have our moral outrage prioritized. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

No Ed, it is in yours. http://www.bsa.net/pa/t1/main.htm Bob White

Deep breath...hold..release.... Hi Ed, I will try to say this a clearly as possible to avoid any further confusion. If you don't change what "your" Troop is doing to a scouting program, it is going to fail in the next 18 months. It has all the signs of a troop in its death roll. Any questions so far? Happy Holidays, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"the philosophy behind the troop and how and why it works" I have no need for the names and numbers of the troop . But, I would dearly like to see the philosophy behind the troop and why it works, in a summarized form. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I have problems with not knowing the difference between homophones." That's Okay FOG, I don't think anyone is going to attack you personally for your vocabulary errors as long as you are equally considerate of their spelling errors. Bob White

I admit it openly, typing was the only class I failed in college. It's not that I don't know the words I just don't always hit the right key. When time allows I run spell-check but often I type and dash off to do something else. At least my typos are not done as a way to ridicule or attack another person. Bob White

I'm sorry, in reviewing my post I see that I did not express myself very well. What I am trying to say is that at this point in time what brought Troop A to this brink is not as important as the fact that they are now here and about to fold. What's needed is for the Leaders of the troop to realize their situation rather than make excuses for being in it. They need to focus more on change than cause. If this was a leader or group of leaders that paid attention to the past or learned from it thay would have remedied the situation by now. 2 left for sports because sports offered more reward, adventure, activity, and fellowsip than the troop did. 9 to 12 new scouts left because they were not getting the promise of scouting fullfilled at the meetings or activities. Ed is it your feeling that this troop is doing fine? Do you see it needing to change anything. Remember if all it does is recruit new scouts without changing it's program the exodus will continue. So do they stay the same of change? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's exactly right Ed, "1st Class Emphasis Program is nothing more than another way to helps Troops have an active program", and the U.S. Constitution is just a way to run a country, and Bill Gates is just a guy who plays with computers. Actually, 1st Class Emphasis Program is The most effective way to help Troops have an active SCOUTING program. Lots of folks wear a scout unform and have an active program, it just isn't a scouting program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, One of the things you learn in commissioning is how to recognize harmful trends. After you see enough scout units you see reoccurring characteristics shared by healthy units as well as recccurring characteristics that are shared by units in trouble. Troop A shows almost every sign of a troop in very bad shape. Quickly diminishing membership Poor new scout retention Assistants outnumbering youth Little to no advancement in over a year No noticeable action to reverse current coarse Failure of leader to recognize problem What has caused these characteristics is unimportant. What matters is that the characteristics exist, and unless they change will result in the collapse of the unit. I have never written that the unit does not exist. If you really feel you need it I will private message their web site to you, you can even post it if you want to. I am not the only experienced scouter who, based on the documented characteristics, ave tagged this unit as In Danger. Go back and read the number of posters with real concerns about this troop's health. Bob White

Ed, your hanging onto illegitimate excuses and avoiding the problem. People moving in or out does not cause an absence of advancement. Nor does moving explain why the other troops have not beem affected. The fact is all this troop does is camp. If it weren't for summer camp they would likely not even have the merit badges they have. It's not that the leaders don't know what to do, they just choose not to do it. This is a soon to be dead troop. It's unfortunate anytime a unit folds but its more unfortunate when it didn't have to happen but the leaders allowed it. Ed, what do you think it would take for this troop to survive? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=47401&p=2#id_47515 Please read the entire post carefullly. thank you(This message has been edited by Bob White)

DaveJ775 I have sent you a private message. Bob White

Mike F. Just for the record, I have said that these units exist. Only FOG has said they are hypothetical and he is wrong. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Can you describe a program like that without mentioning first class in one year? No, I can't. Can you describe the game of baseball without mentioning running the bases? What I described was both the New Scout Patrol program as well as the monthly theme program for regular patrols and venture patrols. We spend hours teaching this in BSA leadership training and have a large SM Handbook, 3 Program Feature books and a Troop Program Resource book to explain and support it. I really cannot do it justice in a post. Bob White

Barry I do not disagree that the 8 methods and 3 aims are the heart of scouting. But New Scout Patrol is a part of the Patrol method, First Class Emphasis is a part of the Advancement Method, It says so in the BSA reources and leader training. Sure there are all different flavors of doing it but NOT doing it is not one of those flavors. If it works don't fix it. But when a troop goes from 17 to 7, retains no better than 33% of new scouts and has only one advancement in 18 months it is time to admit that things are not working. Why would a trained leader not use EVERY scouting resouce available to salvage that troop? I'm not picking on Ed I am trying to make a point that the methods of scouting are important, and that to deny the effectiveness of a program you refuse to use even when what you are doing is not working is unfair to the scouts you are supposed to be serving. I ahve never seen a troop that has a scouting program fail. I have however seen troops with no program fail and troops with a program that isn't a scouting program fail. How do you know when you have a scouting program? When meetings are based on learning and practicing skills and activities are based on applying those skills so that a scout advances as he participates. Bob White

"My Troop has never been larger than 15 Scouts and we have never had more than 3-4 new Scouts peryear." Really Ed? because in march of 2002 you posted that you had 17 scouts and three patrols. And here again And now your updated website says you have 7 Scouts and 1 patrol. "and we have never had more than 3-4 new Scouts peryear." Then you should have had 9 to 12 new scouts in the last three years and you now have only 3 remaining. Somewhere things have gone very wrong. Bob White

Sturgen, What makes you think that the Eagle Rank needs to be any more difficult to earn than is right now. Thast year over 95% of scouts did not reach eagle and that is the lowest percetage to not reach Eagle in the history of the program. If it's true that in Your troop a scout csnnot reach eagle until they are 17 or 18 than you again are in violation of the BSA advancement policies and need to stop what you are doing, it is not the scouting program. You have neither the right or authority to alter advancement requirements. Have you ever read the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual? Bob White

Sturgen, In scouting we teach citizenship. Part of being a good citizen is obeying the laws and rules of a society. In the scouting society we have rules that you as a leader are required to follow. If you disagree with them, work to change them from within the organization. As you point out the program does make changes from time to time. But to simply ignore the rules, and do what you want because you want to do them, is a horrible example to set as a leader and as a citizen. What rules do expect your scouts to follow, all of them, or just the ones they agree with? Bob White

Again FCFY (First Class First Year) is an Award. First Class Emphasis is a program structure. Hunt writes "1. The most likely reason is that these troops schedule plenty of fun activities like campouts, hikes, orienteering, etc. The FCFY program spurs them on to do this because boys need these opportunities in order to make their advancements. But it's the activities that generate the retention." He is partially correct. First Class Emphasis causes the Adult Leader, Specifically the Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols. To plan the 1)troop meeting activities that allow the scout to learn and practice scout skills, and 2)the outdoor events that allow the need to apply the skill so that the scout, through their activity, meets the requirements to advance. Yes, it is the degree of activity that keeps the scout participating and attending. Next he writes "2. A second possibility is that the program generates an advancement mind-set--that once boys have put in the work to get First Class, they are more likely to want to go all the way and get higher ranks. I find this less likely, and somewhat less palatable." Not necessarily, this can happen, but only if the leader takes that attitude and develops it in the scout. It is not a feature or a recommendation of the First Class Emphasis program. It would be a misapplication of the program on the part of the leader. Finally "3. Finally, it may be that troops who pay attention to their program and really try to make it work get more retention than troops who just let things flow along as they've always done. They're just better troops, and thus get more retention. It's not the particular program that works, but the fact they have ANY coherent program." He was right on the money until his last sentence. it works not because the troop has ANY coherent program, but because it has a SCOUTING program. Its what makes the BSA the BSA. Its the scouting program that makes it work not just A program, and it includes First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrols. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is my wrap up on this and everyone is welcome to continue to discus this beyond this point. As I said before these two units exist, they are not unique however and exist in all councils they just have different unit numbers. Mike F made a great analogy. A Scout program is like an automobile. There are all kinds of things the driver has to be aware of engine, wheels, wipers, lights fuel, etc. Ignore any one long enough and it could case a problem in the operation of the vehicle. Some things for operating a car are required by law some are not. However, even the ones not mandated, if ignored, will lead to the eventual ruin of the auto. Take oil changes for instance. Not required by law but most car owners realize the importance. The longer a car goes without an oil change the worse the engine performance wait long enough and the engine locks up. In Scouting, there are many program elements. Ignore any one long enough and it will affect the quality of your program. Even elements not "required" by the BSA, but recommended, will cause the collapse of the unit if ignored. The First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrol structure may not be 'required" but like the oil in your car they are "essential" if you expect to deliver a real scouting program. TROOP A will collapse because it has no scouting program structure. The evidence is clear in the lack of advancement, adult to scout ratio, and poor membership retention. The Scoutmaster, Committee Chair, and CO have two choices. 1) Make immediate and specific program changes and rescue the troop for existing and potential future members, or 2) make excuses to allow themselves to continue as they are now and accept the imminent collapse of a long lived troop. It is said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. For Troop A to continue on the same program and expect scouts to join and scouts to stay is insane. The Scoutmaster can wish for the troop to grow in the next year but unless he is willing to change, wishing will not be enough. The troop does not just need a different program, they need a scouting program. That would mean accepting the fact that not using the New Scout Patrols and the First Class emphasis Program is not an option. Look at it this way what harm could it do. If properly implementing this program works then you, not only rescue the troop but also you improve the scouting program in the community. If it doesn't work you are no worse off then you are right now. What will it take? It requires an open mind and an open heart on behalf of the SM and all adult leaders. Dickenss Christmas Carol seems so appropriate in this situation. Consider the advaice of others as the spirits come to warn Ebenezer of the future that awaits him, one of a sad death, or one of warm friendship. However, the choice is left to Ebenezer. Only he can determine his fate. What will be the fate of Troop A, that depends on whether or not the SM will heed the advice shared with him by knowledgable scouters in and out of his district, and realize this troop is going to die unless he embraces the elements of scouting. I truly wish him well, and hope for the sake of the troop he opens his mind and heart to the recommended methods of scouting. Merry Christmas and God bless us...every one. Bob White

We used to teach that you put butter on burns, that you put tourniquets on arterial bleeding, that you used artificial respiration on drowning victims and that you had scouts do Board of Reviews on other Scouts. USED TO. The BSA learned that none of these practices were effective and in fact in most cases did more harm than good. The BSA has policies that we are required to follow that cover uniforming, safety, advancement and membership. these are not recommendatins, thaey are national polices that individuals and units have no right or authority to alter. A Scout is Trustworthy and Obedient. A scout leader should at least be able to display as much integrity as we expect from the scouts. To have scouts do BORs does not serve the pupose of the Board or serve the needs of scouts or scouting. It is an old method that has been dropped for nearly 20 years and to do it now is a violation of BSA policies. Every scout and parent who is required to submit to one of these boards has a right to know that. There is no justification for not following the BSA polices and regulations. Bob White

Shake-downs are a good preparation and safety check. train the older scouts how to do them and let them administer the pack-check.