Bob White

I didn't make it the Commissioner Service's responsibility, the BSA did that decades ago and if you were indeed a former DE you would have know that BadenP. It's not a secret. And certainly the significance of the Wreath of Service is explained to BSA professionals early on in their training.

According to the BSA it is the people whose position of responsibiltiy insignia includes the Wreath of Service. In other words Commissioners, DE's and SE's. Ultimately however it is the responsibility of Charter organizations to choose quality leaders of good character and to require them to follow the rules of Scouting, of the charter organization, and the community. In any business or organization there are people who just should not be there. People who simple are not good at what they do. The same is true of scouting. People who do not understand the relationship between operating within the rules of scouting and setting an example of good citizenship should be doing something other than scouting.

No one has suggested stoning the DE's girlfriend. They are merely saying that having an unmarried couple share a cabin or tent is obviously contrary to the values put forward by the Scouting program. This fact is obvious and undeniable. What is astounding is the obvious poor judgement used by the DE and those who permitted him to share the cabin with the fiance. This is not about judging someones sins, it's about questioning their decision making and their judgement. A question that this DE, and others involved answered very poorly. This was not about 'can he be allowed to room with her' it was about 'should he be allowed to room with her', and according to the values and the policies of the BSA the answer should have been no.

Anarchist You may not choose the scout leader but you choose the unit, and if you choose to leave your child with an untrained adult leader you have no one to blame but yourself. As as the training, in this case we are not discussing leadership training but nature identification. If you have a leader that cannot look at pictures to tell a Pin Oak from a Sugar Maplem from a Shag Bark Hickory then you have bigger problems then teaching nature to scouts. My concern with Lisa Bob's post is not that leaders should always try to good a good job and that using area resources is a great way for scouts to learn, Not only is that common knowledge but it is reinfoced through many aspects of the BSA programs. It wass her broad brush painting of most scouters doing a poor job of teaching when she has very limited range of experiences to base it on that was so disturbing.

Close OGE. Your use of the word "probably" is incorrect. For a Patrol to have an outing or overnighter without aduilt supoervision they MUST have the Scoutmasters permission. There is no probable about it. As far as a Ship or a Ship's crew (the equivalent of a patrol in a troop) having an outing or activity without adult supervision and having it be a Scout activity. According to the BSA you are correct, that would be prohibited. I know in our case for safety reasons and, at the direction of the charter organization, there must be 2 adults present for the scouts to take out any boat or boats. This is not an issue with the scouts as the leaders keep a fairly healthy distance from the scouts most of the time. We know where they are and they know where we are. Plus we have radios to keep in contact. Kudu would be pleased to know that we sometimes camp more than 100 yards from where the scouts are on the boats. Having adults present does not mean having the adults on top of every activity.

If they are looking for a way to wear their temporay patches indoors then the red vest or the back of the merit badge sash are bioth approved uniform pieces. If they are looking for ways to display them then the items mentioned such as blankets, scrapbooks, shadow boxes, back packs etc. would be ways to do that. While you can put them on the outside of a jacket or sweat shirt, it is not suppossed to be done to official jac-shirts or windbreakers. that has been prohibited by the uniform regulations for many years.

I will try to answer your questions as best I can. "If certain staff members are entitled to get the three and four Woodbadge beads, why not all staff?" Because not all the staff are eligible as determined by the BSA training committee. The same is true of the Wood Badge Course, not all staff memebers get a third bead. "And while we are at it, if WB and NYLT are nearly identical, why don't we let the youth wear the beads? After all they are completing nearly identical training and their leaders are getting extra beads?" Because the Training Committee which is responsible for determining how the beads are used in this country have at this point in time determined that the beads are for adult staff recognition. "Forget my Smokey Bear that I was awarded way back when, I want my beads! LOL" I agree, forget your Smokey Bear hat. It was a gift and not a BSA training recognition. Anyone can wear a campaign hat regardless of what training or staff experience they have. Seriously though, it's two separate programs, there needs to be two separate recognitions." Actually it is the same program, but three separate training courses. "Also has Gilwell had any say in this?" No. "Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Gilwell Park is the actual entity that awards the WB beads via the individual national organizations." Not correct. The UK Scout Asssociation is one source, it is not the only source. That's why I knew about WB changing back in 1995, when I was asked to be a guinea pig for the new program they were testing out at Gilwell when I was on that side of the pond. The rewrite of Wood Badge happened here in 1999 was field tested in late 1999 and early 2000. The course you attended there may have been the UK's new Wood Badge course but it is unrelated to the BSA Wood Badge for the 21st Century course. In any case there are all kinds of different national Wood Badge Courses held world wide. They do not all use the same syllabus and they do not all have the same structure. The onle real common element is that they are all the advanced leadership course for that country's Scouting program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The only ones I know of are all Patrol related. Patrol meetings, Patrol day activities, Patrol short term overnight camping.

I would be interested in knowing what they chose to delete, but you will not know what that was until after you read through the course syllabi.

What do do? I am glad to know that is your goal. That question can be asked and answered without needing to imply that most leaders do a poor job of teaching scouts. The solution is to select quality leaders. Good leaders understand that learning is a continual process, and they know that there are resources available in the community around them so that they do not have to be the only source of instruction. The BSA training explains this from the very beginning of adult leader training in the New Leader Essentials course during the resources section. However adults need to be selected based on thier existing skills and on their ability aqnd willingness to self-improve. Books, videos, supplementary training abound in and out of scouting for a person to call upon. Saying that many or most leaders do not do this is an unsubstantiated generalization that insults the many adults who work very hard to do a good job teaching outdoor skills in the BSA.

Highcountry How are these Scouting issues? I have an ASM who can only take one scout to campouts with him even though he has seat belts to accomodate two, the reason....he has a pickup with a stick shift and bench seats and there is worry if he bumps a scouts leg when shifting is there going to be an issue. That's his choice as the driver it has nothingto do withany BSA rule! " have had some scouts that do a great job from time to time but I need to refrain from giving them a pat on the shoulder etc." No you don't. Show us anywhere in the BSA where you are prohibited from patting a scout on the shoulder! "The list of skits and songs kids can't do at summer camps is way overboard" No such list exists from the BSA! "We live in the mountains, our scouts were 5 year olds with cap guns climbing amongst rock hideouts playing cowbys and Indians, yet at 11 and older, at council, district and summer camps they need to take a climb safely course to be able to climb rocks shoulder high, they find this a joke." Certainly you must realize that safety rules cannot be written based on the each scouts childhood exerience but on the known hazards of the activity itself? This is a national program, how do you expect it to create safety programs based on the local topography? "The famous old Lazertag ban was also a joke, we simply did this as a non scout family event, same with paintball when we used to do it, no scout funds used." Where does the BSA say you can't do these things as a family? It just says that you cannot do them representing the BSA programs. Go ahead and do them if you like with family and friends just leave the image and name of scouting out of it. Why is that such a problem? "Our Council does not require local tour permits if you are in district, and with the cost of gas and difficulty getting parents to drivve we made all our campouts in district to eliminate teh tour permit paperwork and driving issues." The rights to logo issues etc are a hassle but again, nbeing distant we had patrols design neckers and t-shiert that were tastefull and local shops do them up, no approval hassles. You seem very proud of the fact that you ignored the legal rights of the BSA to protect the use of their copyrighted properties. You just broke the rules but your vendor broke the law. You act as if it takes real skill, knowlegde, or character to ingore the law. Sorry that being trustworthy or obedient is such a hassle for you. So the leaders before you broke the rules as well, you must be so proud to be carrying on such a tradition. I am sure the youth you are a role model for will someday share those same values within your community. Its a shame you are not more concerned about that. The problems you list are not scouting issues, they are leadership issues that reflect the importance of picking people of good character on moral values to be scout leaders.

Dancin Fox I agree with you. As a scouter with three beads frm serving on Wood Badge I have no problem with someone on NYLT or NAYLE who meet the new requirements from receiving the same recognition. The courses have similar content and purpose and the task is just as challenging. For folks to say that this is a "serious mistake", but not be able to say what that mistake is, shows how holow the rants over this actually are. Congraulations on your selection, and thanks for your service, to anyone who serves well on any of these courses, you have all earned you beads.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Reading old SM Handbooks and Ask Andy columns will not train you to be a Scoutmaster in today's program. A better course of action would be to borrow the training syllabi (this should be easy since your district doesn't appear to be using them for anything)and read through them instead of old books or unoffical sources. As far as how to handle things, if you believe that the information contadicts the scouting program information then I would talk to that specific trainer afterwards and just say that you are confused. Repeat back your understanding of what they said and confirm that you understood them correctly, then explain what your understanding of the BSA information is and ask them why they differ. It could be the trainer simply made a mistake and he or she will hopefully make time in the course to correct the error. Of course I would not resort to this approach more than a few times. If it is a frequent problem I would resign myself to the fact that you are not getting a good training experience and I would look for other ways to get accurate and complete training. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not at all Rythos, I am suggesting that if her problem with this issue is based on a specific incident then she should limit her observation or complaint it to that specific person and not transfer those same skills or lack of skills to most the leaders in the BSA nationwide.

We get it Vickie, you don't like it. But you have yet to explain how this additional use of the beads negatively affects ANYONE. Do you have three or four beads? If so how does this effect you in any way? How does it diminish your recognition in ANY way? It's fine to have an opinion but it should have some basis is logic or knowledge. If this additional use harms anything or anyone at all please tell us who and how.

If the scouts in your community have poor outdoor skills then say that. But to transfer the characteristics or failing of the few local leaders you know to all the leaders in the nation, or even to most the leaders in the nation, based on such minimal evidence is a sloppy generalization at best. Sorry, I should have said radio program when pointing out her minimal exposure to any evidence that a problem exists with many or most leaders in the BSA when it comes to teaching about nature, not a TV show.

Hi Buffalo Skipper, Despite the background of ther troop, Troop leadership is troop leadership. No matter how you come into leadership and what other positions you have held or still hold the the BSA program is unaffected. My recommendation is to not concern yourself with the past. Focus on the present and the goals for the near future and act accordingly. The Methods of scouting and their implementation are not altered based on the past. The best way to prepare for your growth spurt is to have an assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols prepare a First Class emphasis program plan, and to have the SPL select a Troop Guide now for each expected Patrol. You and the ASM for the New Scout Patrols begin training the Troop Guides before the new Scouts get there. Then turn the new scouts over to the ASM and the Guides. The ASM can keep you infoprmed as to their progress. That you leaves you free to train and develop the skills of the SPL and the other Patrol Leaders. I never suggested not to listen to input from others such as your ASMs, but do not suggest to them what needs to be done...lead. You are the person responsible for the program, they are there to support you. Take what input you want then make a decision and assign tasks to the assitants to get the decisions accomplished. The Scout program is not designed to be lead by popular vote. The program methods are already determined, and your responsibility is to implement them. good luck, have fun as SM.

Who is responsible for the selection of adult leaders in a unit? Who has the authority to remove aq scout leader from the unit anytime they want? This situation does not require a BSA policy against adultery. It simply requires the Unit's committee chair, Charter Organization Representative and Instiututional Head to take their responsibilities seriously when it comes to selecting and retaining unit leaders.

The OLC site has programs that do not require a log in to view and no record of training is kept on those programs. If you select an adult training course that is tracked by the councils then you are connected to the My Scouting learning center sign-in page. There is no need to check both sites. Simply start at the OLC on-line Learning Center, and if the program you select requires a log-in then you will be connected to sign-in page for My Scouting e-learning(This message has been edited by Bob White)

GKlose, I hope you have a good time, but when you get back get your hands on all three syllabi and read through them because your are being denied a lot of the training information. There is no way that all three courses can be be covered in a singlle weekend without severely editing the materials. I would estimate that about 4 or 5 hours of material will be left out. I am sorry to here that after waiting so long that this is the program decision your district ore council has made.

LisaBob you wrote that "that many (most?) scouters are really not well equipped to identify trees and animal signs, let alone to teach kids to do the same." Now it seems that your generalization is based on watching a TV show and a bad day hike with a particular leader. That hardly establishes a trend that many of most Scout leaders model a "fake it till you make it" approach to nature study as you have declared. To bash most of 1.2 million leaders based on your limited knowledge of what "many or most" leaders do, and on your very limited exposure to the situation is an unfair and inaccurate representation of the program and its leaders.

Perhaps a little knowledge can it be dangerous but it isn't always, nor does it always have to be, and to generalize that it is is erroneous. What is wrong with a leader who breaks open a book and goes into a situation with more information than he or she had before? The only danger is if they try to teach beyond that knowledge. But there is no reason to believe that most leaders do that. Remember that we teach BASIC skills, and that there is training available to prepare every adult leader to be able to either teach the skills, and to find resources to teach the skills. One of those resources are the books available on those subjects. LisaBob absolutely suggested that a leader who tries to learn a little more about a topic is in some some way doing a slapdash job with the topic and that is unsupportabl as a general statement of fact that she presented it to be. Certainly you would have to agree that it is better to have leaders with some knowledge than none at all, is it not? To criticize leaders who try to improve their knowledge make no sense.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The policy does not mention Crews, it only says Patrol activities. Crews and Patrols are not the same. A Patrol is a unique group in Scouting. Crews are Chartered units, Patrols are not. When is adult supervision required for crew activities? According to the BSA it is always required.

The reason is that part of scouting is learning to work for the money they need to pay for the things they want. The program is not trying to develop kids good at begging. To set out donation cans to raise money for a bunch of healthy capable scouts is embarrassing. Banned suggests they were once allowed and now are not. They are in fact prohibited and to my knowledge have not been allowed for decades.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am constantly tickled by the opinion of some on this forum that learning something by reading is "faking it". If learning by reading is so bad then why have libraries lasted for centuries? AS far as the opinion that 'many or most scouters are ill-prepared to teach nature studies', generalizations like that have little value. It is true that Scouters who have prapared poorly will be ill-prepared, but whether that is many or most would be impossible to measure. But let's look at what a ANY leader can do. There are some wonderful nature resources available to all of us to use for nature study. Camping and book stores are well stocked with excellent pictorial resource books for identifing and giving great information on Bird Identification, Mammal Identification, Plant and Tree Identification, Reptile Identification, Insect Identification. There is no need for the leader to try and be an expert when expert resources such as these can be the experts. If the scouts sight a bird they don't recognize then have them grab the resource book and teach them to use it so that THEY can learn to identify the bird themselves. There is no reason for any leader to think they need to be an expert in everything that scouts can experience and learn about. There are a world or expert resources surrounding us, the role of the leader is to help scouts discover these resources and learn how to use them. There is no shame in learning things by reading. it s a great place to start learning any skill, then yo can go out and practice and apply the skills in order to gain greater expertise. (This message has been edited by Bob White)