Bob White

There are times when then ends justify the means. The case of the Civil War (War Between the States, for our southern scouters). War is a horrible thing and certainly battling our neighbors is a tragedy, but the preservation of the Union was paramount for the greater good of all. The question is, who determines the greater good. Each person must do what they feel is right, and realize that their actions will be judged in this world and beyond. You must be willing to accept whatever the judgment is.

There is no shamme in selling scouting. Selling is a noble profession and Scouting is a quality product. Just be an honest salesman. Do not make promises you do not intend to keep. If the pack doesn't have fun hands-on activities and do neat things do not say that they do. If the troop isn't rock climbing, canoeing, hiking, swimming, don't say that they are. If the scouts aren't really scouting then yo are not selling a product you are scamming the customer, and there is no honor in that. If you tell the boys the promise of scouting and keep the promise, the boys will come to you year round. So go ahead and sell scouting, but deliver on the product you promise. Bob White

Which is why requirement 8a. fro First Class reads.Demonstrate tying the bowline knot and describe several ways it can be used. rather than "Show how to use a Bowline" In this case the scout is required to perform the specific action of tying the knot. That is not what is required of him in Tenterfoot requirement #1. You may not like it. You may want it to be different. But, it is what it is, and you do not have the authority to change it or to require anything other than what the book says. Leave mom alone, counsel the scout to be prepared, train the BOR to do their job properly. Sticking to the topic, Bob White

The problem appears to be the leader's misunderstanding of the advancement requirements. The Scout must do what the requirement states. No more, no less. The requirement is "Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it." FOGs concern is that I want the Scout to show how to do it rather than doing it. Well according to the requirement the showing is what is required. The problem is not Mom. My guess is mom is trying to get junior to the campout on time. The problem is a leader, or leaders, who want the scout to do what they want, and not what the program requires. Bob White

You have misunderstood the requirement. "Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it. It does not say to pack your own pack. It says show the right way to do it. Assuming you taught the scout in the troop meeting how to do it, then you should see a pack done in that fashion. If the scout was able to teach someone else how to follow those instructions then indeed he must understand how to do it. In testing the scout, I would have him show how the bag was packed and be able to explain why it was packed in that way. If the bag was packed correctly, and the scout knows why it is correct, then he has met the requirement. Scouting needs counselors and leaders not ogres. Simply stated, Bob White

The first thing I would do Laurie is make sure you have a hands-on, fun, recognition filled, Cub Scout Program, with traned leadership and trained committee ready to handle membership growth. Next I would, have a committe member or members whose task was membership recruitment. Have rewards for current members that bring in new members. There are multiple ways to recruit. > Find out who the current scouts see as the nicest kids in their classroom. Recruit their family (parents as leaders, kids as cubs). > Make arrangements now to promote Cub Scout Day camp in your local schools. > Allow families to "invite a friend" on den and pack activiteis. Sell the "activity" let the kids find out it's scouting. > Have a sign up in the fall at the school orientation nights for the parents. > Do a cub talk at the schools. Your district professional can get you posters and handouts to publicize it. > do visible good turn projects in the community. > Talk about Scouting to EVERYONE. And of course > Have a hands-on, fun, recognition filled, Cub Scout Program. A good do-able goal is to add and retain at least one tiger den of 6 boys each year. Best Wishes Bob White

Here is the problem with the CO mix you pointed to ACCO. American Legions, VFWS, Knights of Columbus, Moose, lose more members everyday to death and attrition than they gain. Their memberships are so low that they cannot generate enough money to maintain their halls and they are either closing or moving to such small locations that they can no longer house a scouting unit. They are at the moment a risky partner for long-term maintenance of scouting units. By the way the Chartering organization with the most members is the United Methodist Men's Club, Not the LDS or Catholic Churches. Schools are becoming more difficult to deal with. What better place to look for sponsors of a value based, family centered, youth activity, than religious organizations? McDonalds closed some full service restaurants last year not due to saturation but a down turn in sales related to health concerns among their customer base. Downsizing is a temporary business fix it is not a long-range plan to have if you expect to survive. Along with down sizing they adjusted the menu, employed a new marketing plan, and opened non-traditional stores connected to kwiki-marts and discount stores. In other words, they took steps to not waste existing funds, regrouped, and went back on a growth plan, not unlike what a BSA council would do responding to a similar situation. Look back at your own post as to why your soccer team is so popular. You don't think that same thing hold true for scout units? You think today kids are more enamored by sports than in the past? I'm quite sure there are others here my age or older who remember wanting to be, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Ron Santo, Bobby Hull, Bart Starr, Johnny Unitas, Bob Richards (The guy on the Wheaties Box). I'm sorry, to blame sports is just looking for an excuse so that you don't have to deal with the quality of your own program. I know that's going to upset some folks and I'm sorry, but if you want to get scout aged youth to participate you had better plan to be the "best show in town" because that is where they want to spend their time. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sticks and stones FOG. I gave no counter thought claim or or action to what I had said. Unless you have redifined duplicitous you have no foundation for your claim. You do not like the fact that mom packed the bag, that's fine, counsel the scout. But the board of review has no authority to withhold advancement based on something not required by the handbook in order to advance. The BOR needs to stick to it's purpose not create new ones. You need to stick to the topic and stop attacking me. Bob White

If the local Catholic church wanted to start a choir, would you tell them "no, you can't, because the Baptist church, the Presbyterian church, and almost every junior high and high school already have a choir, and there are only so many people who can sing." Scout units are no different. Any eligible organization that feel they have a youth population of 5 or more that they want to reach using the scouting program has a right to become a Charter Organization, and who are you to say no. Whether or not they have enough adults to do so is their problem. The volunteers of the district committee have a responsibility to assist any Charter Organization to succeed in delivering the program. Unless you have 100% saturation of eligible youth in scouting there is always room for unit growth. Personally, I think to blame sports for any of Scoutings problems is a cop-out. Kids will want to do whatever is most fun an fulfilling for their needs at that stage of their life. If your unit does not offer more gratification than sports then that is a unit problem. The BSA program is designed to offer fitness, physical challenges, recognition, teamwork, fellowship, competition, everything that a young person gets from organized sports. It even promotes belonging to a sports team as part of the advancement opportunities. Sports has been a part of our society as long as scouting has, you need to learn to deal with it not surrender to it.

$43,000 Thats fantastic, you should be very proud of their participation. Our largest single contributor is the UAW Labor Union. They raised nearly $20,000 each year. Target then hosts them for a huge toy buy where they give special discounts to them. We end up with about dozen pick-up trucks piled high with toys. It's a blast. Today, I was going around picking up the cash donations to start next years toy buys with. Have a very Merry Christmas. Bob White

I think the previous three posts contained excellent information.

"How the program is delivered is the quality. If it is delivered poorly the quality is poor & visa versa." And there Ed is where we differ the most. You say, how the program is delivered is the measure of the program's quality. I say, how it is delivered is the measure of the quality of the leaders. The quality of the scouting program is in the aims and methods of the BSA. Bob White

As a member of our county's USMCR Toys for Tots Committee, and a former chaiman of the campaign, I can tell you that what has been said about Target Stores is a lie. Target not only is a major supporter but gives generous discounts to organizations purchasing toys for our kids. Thay also host special events to support us each year. They have been an excellent participant in our community for a number of charitable organizations including Toys for Tots. It's disgusting that should be slandered in this manner. Beaver1onit you have done them a terrible injustice in represented this event as actually happing to you, when it obviously did not. Bob White

Thank you for your concern but I was not responding to Ron's question, I was responding to the question that was the subject of the thread. Why do you constantly feel the need to make personal attacks on me? Bob White

"Should he know what to pack? It's in the handbook, isn't it" Yes it is, so is a section on baby sitting, butneither is a requirement for advancing. Let's keep things in perspective. What is needed for advancement is that the scout has completed the requirements, nothing more, nothing less. The Scoutmaster should talk with the scout about being prepared, suggest he pack in advance of the outing. Bob White

"There's something in the water that's causing the problem. When we wuz youn'uns we knew that there were things that were not said around adults just as we knew that there were things that we didn't do around adults. I would have died rather than swear in front of an adult, in fact I still won't swear in front of my parents or my parent's friends. I also don't swear in front of most women (my wife's the exception since she curses like a trooper) unless I just dropped an anvil on my foot. Whatever it is that's in the water has taken away these inhibitions from kids today. I don't know if it is society, schools, TV or what. Fortunately, the scouts in my troop keep it clean around the adults." I think you have been drinking the water you wrote of. What I think is that you have very little regard for others, regardless of their age or gender (remember the MILF crack when you posted as Yaworski). I think it is not my mind in the gutter. You posted these things. I and others were justed subjected to reading your filth. Bob White If anyone wishes to start another petition because I don't appreciate the language FOG uses please feel free to do so. After all, I'm one one of the horrible people whose typing you find so disgusting. There are some very twisted priorities being displayed here. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It has been a tough year nationally, but I believe that it is a problem that can only be solved on a local level. Each council needs to address the growth of scouting based on it's own demographics and program strengths and weaknesses. Our council which is fairly small as councils go, had a 16% increase in membership this year mostly in Cub Scouting. I understand it was one of the largest increases in the nation though not the largest. It was accomplished primarily on two fronts. A huge training push over the last two years in order to have more leaders who understood the scouting program and their role in making work. This did a lot for our retention of existing members. The second benefit was 2 very talented and active committees. Our marketing and our membership committees did an outstanding job of coordinating and promoting our fall recruitment activities. We added over 1,600 new youth members in two week period. Now it is in the hands of Activities, Training, Fundraising, and Rountable to keep the momentum up. We cannot expect a national headquarters to understand the characteristics of every community throughout the country. That is not their role. It is up to us locally to deliver the program to our neighborhoods. The biggest problem I see in the growth of scouting is the number of units that do not deliver a true scouting program. They are the spoilers in the process. Boys who join and do not get the program they were promised leave with a bad taste of scouting that can transfer across generations. But that's just my perspective. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

In regards to my son's troop. How many boys registered? 34 How many boys active? 29 this time of year, it fluctuates with school activities How many Patrols? 4 Does your troop go to summer camp in or out of Council? Both Does your troop go to Dist/Council Camporees? Sometimes Does your troop support FOS? Yes Does your troop sell Popcorn? If not, what are your fundraisers? Yes Does your troop use NSP, FCFY method? Yes Does your troop have a Venture Patrol? Yes Does your troop have a feeder pack? No How does your troop recruit non-Cub Scouts? Personal invitation Has your troop seen your Unit Commissioner in the past 6 months? No Is your Unit Commissioner helpful or a pain? N/A Do your troop leaders attend Roundtable? Yes How many members are on your troop committee? 13 Is your troop boy led? yes Bob White

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=46273&p=2#id_46402

Granted it shows his mother is better at being prepared than he is but do you know of a part of the Oath or Law it violates or an advancement requirement that requires him to pack his own gear. More than likely the reason is that he doesn't have time when he gets home to pack. A simple suggestion that he should "be prepared" and pack the night before rather than have his mom pack for him would solve the situation. Otherwise I would give it time, he will no doubt outgrow it. There are far more important things for the BOR to focus on. Bob White

No, they do not. The Advancement policies of the BSA allow the scout to work on the badge until his 18th birthday. No exceptions. Bob White

I will be happy to answer but allow me to preface this. First, it would not have been fair to compare a real troop A with a hypothetical Troop B. Second, there is nothing special or unique about me as a scouter, or the packs or troops I have served in, other than I use the scouting program. The same scout program that is in the training and resources available to and known by Ed. If your plan is to try and scold or embarrass me for having a healthy program, and for crediting that to using the scouting program it won't work. I am not responsible for the quality of scouting in any unit I have been in, the scouting program is. I have been doing this for a long time and I have seen many units come and go. The fact is that the units that have stable membership, coinsistant advancement, retain most scouts to 18, sustain Cubs to Arrow of Light. Have the strongest Charter Organization Relationships and have the most developed scouts, are the units that follow the program the closest. I would have preferred to use the troop Where Eamonn is Scoutmaster or OGE's or one of the other many leaders on this board instead. But I did not want to subject them to any of the possible backlash from the few posters who have so little respect for the BSA and it's programs. So I used the statistics from my son's troop. 3 years ago this was a troop with about 15 scouts whose SM was removed for Youth Protection reasons. The troop would have folded if it were not for all new leadership who made it a goal to folow the program. You can see the results. We have never done a merit badge as a troop meeting program. We do not rubber stamp advancement. We train, practice, apply, and encourage scouts to pursue MBs on their own time. We are not perfect, we have things we could still do better, but there are no perfect troops. That doesn't mean you can't be a good troop and it doesn't mean that you can do want you want and call it scouting whether you like the results or not. Scouting is the method we use not the uniform we wear. Don't be quick to criticize my method. All I did was point out a hazard that was camoflaged as a benefit. I did not create the hazard. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, you only have 1 patrol! The patrol method is more than just electing a leader. How do you see that you use the patrol method?

Let's get a few details straight. Whenever I post a recommendation for the use of the BSA recommended and proven program of First Class emphasis or for the New Scout Patrol, Ed has discouraged it's use. His claim in the past was that he doesn't like it and doesn't use it and doesn't recommend it. His standard bearer for that claim was "his" troop. Ed's version of scouting is no more the BSA program than Sturgen's. I have no intention of keeping them from posting, but if they have a right to denounce the BSA program, then I have the right to support the BSA and denounce what they have done and are doing to the youth they should be serving. 18-months ago in a discussion over this he said, look at my troop, we have 18 scouts and we don't use these methods. So following a link he gave I looked at "his" troop. I published the statistics of "his" troop and I asked for objective opinions of some very experienced scouters on their opinion on the health of this troop. We had a professional, scoutmasters, asst. scoutmasters, committee members, all identify this as a unit in bad shape. No one made Ed hold "his" unit up to be the evidence of a good program. Ed did that of his own accord. Ed's post were aimed at negating the positive attributes of a recommended scouting program. Ed said he knew a better way. All I did was go to his troop's site and quantify what was said. Everyone made their own decision as to it's health. I was in no hurry to say that Troop A was Ed's troop. He knew it was him and he pressed the issue. I NEVER said that it was a hypothetical troop, nor do I think it is unique. What is unique is that the leader of such a troop would publicly brag about the condition of the unit and it's lack of use of basic scouting methods. Search Ed's posts. You will find where he says that the troop only elects the SPL and Ed assigns the rest. That's not using the scouting program. Ed, posts of routinely losing 50% of New Scouts (we now know it is more like 66% to 75%)that is not using the scouting program, Ed has told of not allowing Patrol activities, and that is not the scouting program. Ed has told how he directs scouts to specifc merit badges (look at the scout profiles their MB are nearly identical) that is not the scouting program. Yet, Ed wants units to do as he does, and the fact is that Troop 1 is dying and nearly dead. I am not responsible for the condition of Ed's troop. I did not manufacture the information shared about his troop. His troop has posted every fact on their website for anyone to see. If you thought troop A was in trouble, it was an objective decision that each person made based on facts offered by Ed when he invited us to visit his site. I simply asked everyone what they thought those facts represented. The message here is that the methods of scouting work if you use them and if you do not use them the unit will suffer. If you don't like the message do not slay the messenger. Bob White

"Ed's" troop by evidence of his own posts does not follow the Patrol method, leadership method, advancement method. The results are obvious in the membership recruitment, retention, and advancement of the troop. I wish the boys well, Bob White