Bob White

"let's not bastardize the language and divorce ourselves from the natural bonds of fellowship by adopting an obtuse phraseology." I do not believe that this kind of dramatization adds anything to your point. Nothing I offered fits this description in any way. I do not know what your experience has been working with multiple units, or over what period of time, but we obviously differ in our background and experiences. I respect your opinion, but I stand by mine.

There are 4 Quality unit recognitions. One for each of the traditional scouting programs. They are available for downloading at numerous locations on the Internet. The form for Quality Council and District recognitions are available from you local scout office. The basic requirements are the same but the specific goals are dependent on the previous years statistics in your specific district or council. They include measurements on: membership, training, finances, unit commissioners, units, manpower, there are one or two others but that's all that come to mind at the moment. It is interesting to note that what is measured are the kinds of things that Fuzzy Bear said he started doing once he stopped meeting to complain about things. He notes that in improving these areas he saw some of the best scouting ever in his area. That's what these mile markers are all about.

Before this goes to far askew, let me say that my comment regarding "my troop" was quickly latched on to, twisted and contorted by a couple of posters who are renowned for doing so. Please try to understand that the original post was not a condemnation of the word "my" or suggesting in any way that a person should not take ownership of their friends, families, spouses, jobs, accomplishments, etc. etc. It was a simple observation, and a related recommendation, that I was taught nearly 30-years ago as a new scout leader. I have seen so many examples of it that I accept it and have used it for many years. One of the biggest problems in troop scouting is the tyrannical Scoutmaster. The one who controls it all and refuses any method other than his own, even to the point of rejecting the scout methods unless they happen to agree with his own. They doggedly follow this behavior even to the death of the unit, which was caused by their own behavior. Every one of these (and I have seen many) referred to it as "MY TROOP". It is a reflection of their total dominance of the unit. I was taught a simple tool to help avoid this mindset and keep the role of scout leader in perspective. It is the avoidance of that phrase. I was taught to use a very non-aggressive term, "the troop I serve". It is simply a reminder, to me and those around me, that I am not the be all and end all word of authority in the troop. I am a part of a team that serves the boys through the scouting methods. That's it. That's all I ever said. If you want to say "my leaders", "my wife", "my house", that's fine, that's not what I was talking about. I was referring to the egomaniacal mind set that can kill a unit, and chase boys from scouting, and how one way it manifests itself is in the phrase "my troop", and how one simple, harmless, way to remind yourself of your place in the grand scheme of scouting is to avoid that phrase and substitute it for "the troop I serve" or something similar. There is no need to rebut this post. If you choose to agree or disagree, that's your personal choice. I return you now to your regularly scheduled topic.

"I don't think that any district should describe a unit as being a "Quality Unit" without being familiar with the program." The District does not "describe" a unit as being a "Quality Unit". National designates a unit as being quality based on the attainment of a set of measurable achievements. The same holds true for Quality District and Quality Council. Just as Quality Unit is based on multiple elements, so are Quality District and Council designations. Every element is tied in some way to a number. How else could it be measurable? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If an adult, non-parent or non-guardian of a Den member, wanted to work with the Den I would highly recommend that they be treated as any adult pack leader. They should be required to comlete an adult aplication, present the pack committee chair with personal references, and take the basic training for their position in the pack. There are Youth protection and liability issues that must be considered for the protection of the members and the Chartering Organization.

At no time did I offer a theory. I presented the purpose and structure of the recognition and the elements leading to it. Application is the variable and always will be. Since it takes people to make the program work there will always be problems no matter how the program is structured. Some people do better then others at delivering the program at its various levels. As long as we are people dependent (and we always will be) there will be times when methods and practices are misused or avoided altogether. The solution is, don't be one of the people who do it wrong. "Real life" is what you make it. If in your unit or community you or others misuse or ignore the scouting methods and practices, then the failure that follows is your "real life". If however you follow the program and succeed then "real life" for you is that the program works. So far the only examples presented here are on misuse, so that is that council's "real life". But, to take that example or others councils where the program is not administered well, and then blame the program instead of the local administration, is misguided. Eamonn is in a tough position because of the time of year. Bad decisions are being made out of panic rather than planning. You don't walk around in the woods for a year and then look at a map to see if you are near your destination. The professional staff, District and Council committees need to be monitoring the signposts regularly from the start of each year and continually moving toward (and beyond) the minimum performance standards, so at the end of the year they have arrived at the destination, not scampering to find it. It is a common problem, that in most cases, works itself out as the individuals and committees in the scouting communities learn to do their job better.

Quality Unit, District or Council IS NOT the goal. The goal is to deliver the scouting program. Quality Unit, District and Council are the landmarks that show we are on the right road. They are simply a list of elements that mark the minimum activity it requires to sustain the program at varyious levels. Yes, the journey is more important than the destination. But if you do not have some way of knowing where you are, then all you are doing is wandering around in the wilderness. Quality Unit, District, and Council are the trail markers that keep you on track.

As a volunteer I have to agree with what your DE was told. Quality District and Council, like Quality Unit, is the minimum expected level of performance for professionals and volunteers. Keep in mind that the requirements of all these recognitions are "minimum" performance expectations. A Unit that is unable to achieve Quality Unit is in trouble. So is a district or council. In many instances goals you fail to meet this year will affect other program elements and make it even more difficult for you to offer a quality scouting program next year. Does not achieving Quality District or Quality Council effect every professional's evaluation? Sure it does. It also affects the evaluation of the District and Council volunteers, just like not achieving Quality Unit should be used by the COR and Committee Chair to evaluate the unit volunteers. If, in whatever level we serve, we cannot meet the minimum requirements for delivering a scouting program we should be making efforts to either improve or expect to be replaced. That goes for professionals and volunteers alike. If you really expect scouting to flourish at any level then you need people who can make that happen. Good scouting takes more than just good intentions. Dedication without the ability to deliver a quality program, raise the needed funding, recruit youth and leaders, and inspire more charter organizations, is a recipe for self-extinction. Bob White

Why the recognition exists and why some people cheat are two separate and distinct questions. One has nothing to do with the other. Mile markers exist along the highway to help you know where you are. Whether or not you move them is a different matter all together. The question was asked, why do they exist. I answered that portion of the question. As to why some individuals are manipulating those markers, it is a question best asked of the individuals doing the misdeed. But, their behavior does not alter the reason for the existence of the recognition. The problem here is that we are trying to vilify the recognition and its requirements, whose only purpose is to help guide a community to a stronger scouting program. It is not the recognition at fault here. It is the individuals misusing it that need to change. Bob White

"1. Why reaching the goal of Quality Council is do or die? 2. Other then the recognition of your peers is there some prize that is unknown by us mortal volunteers? (Yes I know about the plaque.)" Being a Quality Council is a signpost that you are providing more support for more units and more scouts than you did last year. The goal of District and Council Committees is to help make quality scouting available to every eligible youth in the community. Quality District and Council, shows that you are achieving the minimum tasks needed to reach that obligation. The requirements for the recognition spell out the responsibilities of the District and Council committees. Meeting those requirements is the self-evaluation of your effectiveness. The recognition itself is just the BSA's way of thanking you for your leadership in providing a growing scouting program to your community.

At the first meeting a scout attends we discuss the meanings of the points of the Scout Law with them. We stress that clean in word and deed is expected of each person, both youth and adult, at all times. As with any part of the Scout Oath and Law, if the boy wants to be able to attend the events he must behave as a scout. We also stress that if the adults can communicate without cursing so can the boys. that being said...once upon a time, I offered to make dessert for the troop. I wanted to demonstrate a method of stacking dutch ovens to cook. About 40 minutes into the cooking time, I unstacked the ovens to look inside and see if the desserts were done. I decided they needed about 10 more minutes so I started to restack them. However, I failed to put my hot glove back on. When I grabbed the first oven by it's very hot bail and lifted it off the ground. The entire camp heard the sizzle of the hot wire as it burned a line across my fingers. Next they heard a string of invectives, many of which I did not even know I knew, spill from my mouth. A cheer of "all right Mr. White" arose from the boys as they let fly with every curse word they knew for about 10 seconds. The SPL raised his hand in the scout sign and everyone immediately went silent. The SPL looked at me and said "Well, I think we are all even." Everyone laughed as I headed for the cold water. No one ever cursed, or mentioned the incident again, as far as I know. Bob White

I see no problem with going OoC (Out of Council) from time to time, as long as you are supporting your home council through FOS and Popcorn. Here is a thought if any professionals are reading this....how about Ambassador Troops between councils. Troops pay their regular council fees to their home council and then attend a different council camp as Ambassadors. They would be special guests that would promote scouting brotherhood, share information about scouting in their council, bring home new ideas, make new friends. During the week they would give a presentation about their home summer camp, and when they return, give a presentation about the camp they visited. Among other benefits the home camp does not lose any money from the unit going out of council, the boys get a special priviledge, both councils gain program knowledge, new friendships are formed etc. etc. So what do you think? Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays, The Bob White brood (This message has been edited by Bob White)

But commandopro, We give cub leaders a Program Helps Book with a year of minute-by-minute, meeting-by-meeting agendas to follow, they have a rank book with all the info on every requirement and how do do it. We have a How-To-Book with all the activities broken down with easy to afford or obtain materials. We have a ceremonies book they can follow for simple but meaningful ceremonies. We offer a short 3-hour training to orient them in their job, We have a volunteer staff of program specialists available to them every month at Roundatable. We don't need or want an idiot proof system, because then units will think it's OK to select idiots as leaders. We have a great system, we have everything a person needs in order to successfully deliver a quality scouting program at any level, IF they choose to. We need more unit level volunteers who want to focus on the quality of the program they deliver, than on the political woes of the council or national offices. We cannot control the politically motivated attacks against the BSA, but we have total control on the quality of our next meeting. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Having been a scout during the Vietnam era as well as the drug prolific 70s, I could not disagree more with commandopro. For the last 30 years the biggest problem that scouting has had is it's failure to lower its standards and morals the way so much of the society around us has. If seeing the scouting program survive in name but not in values is our only hope for future existence than I would rather see the BSA close down. My values are not for sale to the United Way of the Philly City Council or anyone of anything else. Scouting helped teach me that and I believe they will stand by it. Parents may not want to inject their boys into controversy, but boys are in units and that is not where the controversy has ever been, unless the leaders of the unit have chosen to be controversial. Sorry commandopro, but you are engaging in fear mongering, and giving those with whom lip-service is their only skill in scouting, another thing to talk about rather than have to take action in their unit to deliver on the program. All it will take for scouting to continue in it's success is for more volunteers to take their mission personally and seriously, and work for the benifit of their scouts and their scouting community. No individual has ever failed to deliver scouting due to the United Way or the myriad of political groups attacking us. They fail through poor leadership. Bob White

In this council the beads are presented by the Course Director or staff member from the course at the time and place of the recipients choosing. The history of the Wood Badge is given and an explaination is given of the MacLaren tartan on the neckerchief, the Beads, and the Woggle. As these are explained they are placed on the recipient. Handshakes all around, and then we often sing the WB song. Bob White

Close Dan, The DoubleH ranch is an Elk preserve. Millions of dollars were donated to the National Forest Service by the man that invented the pnuematic nail gun. It was a gift given under the conditions that they partner with a youth organization for the study of Elk habitat. The BSA was selected as the partnering organization. Several thousand acres of wilderness in central New Mexico was purchased for the ranch. 2004 will be its first summer of operation. It will consist of treks lead by a ranger that will track and study Elk for a one-week or ten day period. It is BSA's Goal to be able to serve 10,000 scouts or more each year, according to information shared with us at Philmont training Center last summer. Bob White I have to admit I chuckled when I read the part about the Elks Club. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not sure what syllabus you have Gidget, and I will double check mine, but I do not recall fundraising and budgeting in any of the Den Leader courses. Finances are covered in New Leader Essentials, and in the pack and troop committee trainings, but not in the den Leader Cubmaster or Scoutmaster job specific courses. Those course are almost eniterly program centered. They discuss the characteristics of a good den leader, elements of a successful meeting, planning resources, uniform and advancement. They do not have craft skills but neither did the previous Cub Basic Training course. That has always been the role of Rountable and Pow Wow. Having done Cub Training for many years I see very little difference in the sourse content other than the use of modern presentation tools and a streamlined agenda.

"Today, with few exceptions, that cant happen. The boy can be one or the other." I don't see that to be the case at all. Right now we have scouts in my son's troop that participate in wrestling, football, basketball, soccer, track, band, and speech/drama. None of those sports last year round. They come when they can during the season, and when the season is over they come back. They enjoy the program, they miss it when they are gone, but they know the door is open and that they are welcome to come back whenever they can. My experience has been it's only an issue if you choose to make it one. Bob White

Let me join in that wish. I hope everyone has a joyous holiday season and a happy New Year. Bob White Well thats about 485 fewer cards to mail today!

I do not disagree with what you say NJ. Which is why I can't understand posters who cannot accept the care with which the council is choosing its words. It's tough to serve two masters.

Now you know why I hate to go to OA workdays. We do a great job of sfety training for using camp tools, water safety, fire and fuel safety, but when it comes to non-camping activities, scout camps are some of the most dangerous places I have ever seen. Crowds of scouts re-shingling a cabin roof without fall protection. Adult leaders using chain saws without safety glasses and chaps, while in tennis shoes. Scouts in close proximity swinging golf club-like weed wackers. The OA pouring kerosene on a fire lay. After several attempts to counsel the camp ranger and others, it took a letter to the council's Loss Prevention committee to get things corrected to the point where it is almost bearable. I am so sorry that that young man lost his life. I'm thankful we have not seen more of that happen. Bob White

I cannot belive that the the COL council would try to manipulate the wording of a document to able to please both the BSA and the Philly city council. I am stunned! After all everything the government authors is so clear cut and makes no effort to straddle fences to appease multiple parties, why does the COL council not follow that example? Keep in mind the COL is not required to please the city council to remain a scouting council. They only need to do so to retain some current city resources. The COL council does however have to please the BSA if they wish to remain a council. Also keep in mind that there are other anti-discrimination laws at play here. For instance if the City of Philedelphia allows any use of public property to any organization at no charge, then they must offer it to the BSA as well. They cannot dicriminate against us.

FScouter is correct, and this is the NEW training curriculum. If your Council is charging a fee for Cub Leader Specific I am sorry. most Districts do not. The training starts with New Leader Essentials which you take one time only. After that you attend job specific training for your position in the pack. As your position changes you attend your specific training for that job. As a Den Leader there are three courses in the continuum. Tiger Den Leader Job Specific Wolf/Bear Den Leader Job Specific and Webelos Den Leader Job Specific As FScouter posted each course is 2 1/2 to 3 hours in length. A smal investment to make to give the boys a scouting program.

Eaglefoot, Maybe I'm not understanding your post. It doesn't appear that there is a support problem for your scoutmaster. It sounds like your scoutmaster and all the rest do not understand the program and are satisfied with what they are doing. In what way is the scoutmaster not being supported? BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Throughout scoutings history we have had periods of increases and decreases in membership. Think of it like the stock market. Overall, in the long run we do just fine. The trick is not to panic. Work your strengths and improve your weaknesses. The solution to scouting is at the unit level. Leaders need to understand that there is a cumulative effect that comes from the actions of the unit program. When a pack doesn't recruit new scouts, when a troop doesn't retain their membership, the entire program is hurt. A unit program that doesn't sell popcorn, support FOS, attend council camp, get training, will weaken the entire program not just their unit. As Unit level volunteers, we have a responsibility to the rest of the scouting community. We need to do it right. We need to follow the program and deliver a program that will consistently bring more youth and adults to scouting. Its up to us.