Bob White

Let me see if I get this straight. You are belittling the entire population of the USA because of your personal interpretation of the current events as related through the commercial news media? Is that about right? Such personal power you have allowed yourself. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Let's put that into historical perspective Region 7. Much of B-Ps purpose to the original British Scouting program was to encourage and prepare young boys for a stint in the military. That is not the purpose of the BSA.

So home owners would need what then Laser guided ballistics? if no matter what gun you own crooks will have bigger guns then why have the gun at all let the crook have a bigger nothing than you have? I'm not saying that is the way to go but it is the logic you chose to follow. I can see the value in some many ways for gun owner ship especially if you were in a hi risk profession. But to keep a loaded firearm where you can access while barely awake and reacted from fear or surprise in the dark does not seem like a good decision to me.

Then I would offer that to determine that they would be refused as adult leaders is premature. If they were selected because they have characteristics and values that would make them good scout leaders then the CO should submit their applications and see if the BSA accepts them. But to choose them because 'they are willing to do it' is not good criteria for leader selection even for people without a record.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"If this world were to resort to sticks and stones, they'd have the bigger sticks, and the sharper stones; likely stolen from a law-abiding citizen who had his sticks and stones properly registered and properly stored in a stick/stone safe." Is this really the example you want to use? Following this logic.... If this world were to resort to handguns and shotguns, they (the criminals) would have the bigger guns, and shotguns; likely stolen from a law-abiding citizen who had his guns and shotguns properly registered and properly stored in a gun safe. And by the way that's not true either. Rarely are the stolen guns from gun safes. they are usually from the night stand or under the bed or some other easy to access location that the owner had them in because he left his home susceptible to break-ins. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn, Do I understand you to say that every potential leader has been convicted of a violent crime, sexual abuse, or drug trafficking? Because I believe those are the only areas of criminal behaviour that will cause immediate rejection of their application.

Again, I have nothing against guns, or the legal ownership of them, and I think there are other purposes for them than killing people. But Trail Pounder, just what country's army do you feel has the capacity to try and land sufficient enemy forces in the USA that our military structure is incapable of stopping?

I don't believe that simply having a past record makes you ineligible for scout leadership. How far in the past, the nature of the crime, the results of the personal references follow-up, all play a role in helping the Charter organization to select a leader and the BSA to accept or deny the membership. In addition, a lot depends on the position that the adult is applying for. I would not want a person with a DUI conviction driving scouts unless I was confident that the problem was under control. However that same person might be fine in a committee function. The decision is the Charter Organization Representatives and the Committee Chairs, unless the nature of the crime is one that would cause the BSA to refuse the application.

After being taken to task by the morality police for using "TFB," I was surprised to see that so many of you are Beatles fans. The correlation there being what? That if you are disgusted by a scouter using obscenity on a public forum, then you cant enjoy music? The Beatles were atheists, drug using criminals, involved in casual sex with multiple partners, and just not good role models. Not really an appropriate topic for a Scouting forum I agree they are not appropriate content for this board, but then again only the originator of this thread brought those topics up. Everyone else simply talked about their music.

If you would please make the donation in honor of Mr. Dovetonsils (I'm trying to get him the James West Knot).

On the other hand RobK. In your case, even if you catch the raccoons, you have not addressed the real problem which is the condition of the campsite. If you kept a proper campsite you would not have raccoon problems. Seems an even simpler solution. "Some criminologists claim that guns in the hands of honest citizens account for some 2.5 million instances of crime stopping without a shot being fired." Did the criminologists say how many of those guns are used by law enforcement officers?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's the title of a poem by Anselm Dovetonsils. http://www.kokonino.com/dovetonsils/ (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Tamegonit, SPL is an important job. Not only can you have a big influence in the success of the troop, but you have a real opportunity to develop leadership skills in yourself and others. What do you understand to be the job of an SPL, and what are you doing at this point in time, to achieve those goals? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Monty Python's Fying Circus

Does a gun have to involved in a death for it to be counted as used illegally? For instance that truckload of automatic weapons that was stolen. Isn't every person who now has possession of one of those guns involved in a crime? What about all the handguns that are used to commit a robbery but never fired, where do the statistics record them? I am not anti-gun, like others who have posted I do not own one but I have nothing against those that do. However, having two brothers who are veteran police offers in suburbs of a major city, I am aware of the safe use of firearms, and the frequent abuses of gun possession by both legal and illegal owners. A responsible gun owner with children in their home will store the handgun and ammunition in separate locked locations, right? So in case of a home intrusion you would awake, evaluate the situation, silently access both locations, load the firearm and in your haste, in the dark, having just woken up, find the correct target, and with unimpaired judgment aim and fire? Does this happen successfully, sure but not very often. More often than not the gun owner is not home when the house is broken into. Why? Because crooks want to steal what you have at their pace not yours. In a total of about 40 years in law enforcement neither brother has been to a home where the owner got to the gun before the crook did or before the crook had left. Only one has ever needed to fire his weapon in order to make an arrest or defend himself, and only once. If any of you know police officers they would tell you that if you want your home to be secure to invest in good exterior lighting, clear landscaping from windows and doors that might conceal a criminals entrance, Have good deadbolt locks on all exterior entrances and on interior doors leading to the basement and garage, Stop your paper and mail if you are not going to be home, and ask a neighbor to keep an eye on your home when you go on vacation. No one ever shot a spouse or child by mistake by taking the steps listed above. Crooks are like raccoons in a campground. They are going to go to the easiest target where finding food is the easiest. If you control you litter, hang you garbage, put you gear away, then the varmints go ravage a different site. Once you realize they are in the site it's usually too late to react. Food for thought Bob

Wingnut, I love the concert tour t-shirt. What a great idea! Consider sending one and an article to Scouting magazine. That is definitely one worth sharing. Bob

I liked you better before you and Beavis split up.

Well now we are making real headway. You have gone from saying that I implied everyone was a poor scoutmaster to "they are less than perfect". The facts are I didn't say either, but I will agree with you that we are not all perfect. In fact it's safe to say that none of us are. Now if we could agree that what I shared was that there are things we can do to be better at delivering the scouting program. One of those things that a leader could choose to do is to maintain membership in a troop but show that they are not the "boss" of the the troop, through a harmless affirmation of "the troop I serve" rather then "MY troop". Which is what I actually shared and not what you have claimed. Now let's have a happy new year and stop whipping this dead horse.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm quarantined in the home office for the 4th day in a row with the flu. I'm trying not to infect the wife and son. So it looks like it will be me and Dick Clark wheezing in the New Year together. Have a happy, Bob

What the heck are you talking about Ed? Hillcourt did not say that all scouters who say "my troop" are bad scouters and (read this closely) NEITHER DID I! I shared what Hillcourt shared with us. One way to avoid falling in to a pattern that can destroy a troop is by a simple self-reminder. My high horse? I just shared a tool from Hillcourt. How come you're not attacking him? If any posters could have learned a lesson here Ed, it should have be you. Eamonn I'm glad she ate the potato. We need more good scouters. I will happily send you a sack of potatoes, please pass them out generously. Bob

"All I can say about that old post was that you BW, implied that everyone who used 'my' or 'mine' was completely wrong in their relationship to the units and were not good Scouters." Where in either post did I imply what you said? I think if you look at it with a little less bias you will understand what I wrote a little better. My post was in context to the question of who owns the troop. My response was, not the Scoutmaster. That a fellow you may have heard of named Bill "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, a renowned scouter, and for years the acknowledged authority on troop and Patrol operations and author of several Boy Scout Handbooks explained at a training session I attended, that too often troops are destroyed by tyrannical Scoutmasters who control troops from the authority they give themselves and reflect in the phrase "MY TROOP". It was Hillcourt's assertion that of all people associated with a troop the scoutmaster had the least right of possession. He recommended the use of "the troop I serve" to act as a reminder of the scout leaders role. Now, nowhere in the posts you represented or in the recommendation made by Hillcourt did anyone say what you asserted. I repeated specific examples shared by Hillcourt of the kind of behavior that he saw displayed by Scoutmasters who believed the troop was "theirs". Had you openly represented some of the other points I made in that thread you would have shared this one as well.... "It's a personal choice. What harm would it be if simply by being more conscious of your role in scouting it made for better scouting for boys?" I asked that question three times and no one ever answered it. Bob White

I don't think he is referring to you Dave. I am not sure if he knows who he is referring to. We have seen statements similar to his in this thread and others. The vast majority of them are simply repeats of of gripes shared over coffee by scouters who have a limited understanding, if any at all, of the responsibilities of scouters outside of unit leadership. The thought that those who administrate scouting for a geographic area have no idea of how the program works is absurd. Many are current unit volunteers, or have many years in unit leadership, or both. Keep in mind that although the majority of "program" responsibilities rest with unit volunteers, it is the work of national, regional, council and district volunteers and professional that provide the program support to haelp the leaders succeed. It is the same hideous dragon of "them" and "us" raising its head. Some refuse to accept that it is all just "US". All working to make a quality scouting program available to every eligible youth in the geographic area we serve. Are there poor quality professionals? Certainly, but there are more good than bad. Are there poor quality volunteers? Sure there are, they exist at evry level. Few who fail to deliver the program last for the long run. I would be curious to know what Adrianvs' actual adult scouting background is that he has developed such misconceptions of scouting beyond the unit. Bob

"A problem just as large is the "official" of any level who sees units as cogs and tools which may be used to achieve some numeric goal and to which he is unattached. Out of touch with the real program itself, they fall back on simple quotas and turn into nothing more than pipelines." Care to share a specific example?

That's quite an accusation NWScouter. I welcome any actual evidence to support that claim. Please provide a link to the post where I said any such thing.

Did I say this had anything to do with anything other than referring to yourself in relationship to a scout unit? What is this great attraction to twisting a very simple idea? To say "in the troop I serve" does not separate you from the group. If anything, it identifies and defines your role in the group. At the same time it acts as reminder to keep that relationship in perspective. I am not asking anyone to agree but please quit misrepresenting what I have said.