Bob White

You are probably thinking of Mister Scoutmaster starrinig Clifton Webb (who by the way would not actually be allowed membership to the BSA). The boy was played by George Winslow.

Well first I would not have called the fire department unless the kid had caught fire. I'd call the locksmith and while we waited explained to dad that he would need to pay for the locksmith and the contents of the machine, which he could take with him as souvenirs along with his son. If he was unwilling to do that I would explained that breaking into the machine is considered criminal trespass and he would have to file a police report on behalf of the vendor. Dad's choice.

"The Japanese had plans for invading the US mainland. The Soviets had thoughts about it too. Britain actually did it." Sorry Rob, but the vikings landed here once too, but I don't see them coming back. It's a different time, and different geopolitical world. Japan does not have the military ability, The Soviet Union doesn't exist, the British haven't been our enemy for nearly 200 years. It's not as if our military is going to be dismantled, or our ability to detect invading forces approaching removed. If you need a firearm to protect youself there are situations where I can by into that. But to think that you need it to protect your neighborhood from an invading military force is the stuff of comic books, not real life. I have a friend who is an emrgency room physician. He was always amazed at the number of gun shot wound victims he treated that were shot by their own guns. What amazes him is that every case starts the same way "I don't know how it happened, I'm sure the gun wasn't loaded". Gun ownership doesn't worry me.....but some gun owners sure do.

Please do not feel put on the spot Tamegonit. This is a great way for your to learn more about troop scouting and its a great opportunity for us as adult leaders to understand how the job is viewed from the scout's vantage point. So we all learn something from these exchanges. Bring on your questions or comments, Bob White

I agree with TwoCubDad, The mert badge sash is certainly approriate for this occassion. As Tamegonit points out, it is inappropriate to wear both, and neither is to be draped on a belt. The sash is either worn over the shoulder or not at all. By the way Tamegonit, there is no such clasissification in the BSA as a "Class A" uniform.

Consider this. Scouting is not a sit and listen program. Even at the Cub level it is meant to be hands-on, and interactive. Moulange can be simple or complex injuries. Elmers glue can be used to simulate 2nd degree burns, rouge can look like sunburn, Halloween makeup can make a person look cyanotic and in need of rescue breathing, or make the victim pale, and mist then with water and glycerin to look sweaty and pasty like a heart attack victim. Go ahead, be a big spender and bust open some band-aids. Do they know how to treat a cut on a knuckle or the palm of the hand? When they demonstrate treating poison ivy how do they know what the rash will look like? When they wash after plant contact do they show you that they use a lot of lather and a flushing rinse? These are not things you can read or talk about and expect to retain. This needs to be hands on doing/learning whether Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting. It makes the meeting fun and adventurous for the boys. It's also more rewarding for the teacher than just being a talking head. Thanks ScouterPaul, These are the discussions I would much rather have as well. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Oh NJ, the steel rod was just the first one. We had third degree burns, compound fractures (you should see how much an arm with a chicken bone sticking out of a mound of puddy covered in Karo syrup with red food coloring looks like a compound fracture). Then there was the shards of glass in the face, as well as some simple blisters, bee stings, poison ivy, bloody nose, etc.

It's always difficult to say goodbye to friends. I am sorry for your loss wingnut. I'm sure whatever you choose to say will be fine if it is from your heart. Bob White

That's a good point NJ. My experience has been that, except in the most basic injury cases, most people will panic unless well trained and frequently practiced . Case in point. I was a department manager for a large discount store back in the early 80s. The store manager (an Eagle Scout)came up to me quitely one day, handed me a very small first aid kit and said I was needed in the warehouse. As I entered I saw my friend, the warehouse manager lying partially twisted in a pool of blood. Eight other adults were present. Two of them vomitting, 6 of them crying, they thought (as did I at first glance) that he was dead. The first thing I did was ask "who called the ambulance?" No one had. In the time it took for him to get injured, have a crowd gather, find the store manager, have him decide to get me, and for me to get to the scene, at least 5 minutes had gone by and no one had even called the ambulance. The kicker was he was lying 8 ft from a telephone. He was alive by the way. It turns out that he had fallen about 20 ft. off of the top shelf in the warehouse. He hit and bounced off of 2 more shelves on the way to the concrete floor. Those hits broke his arm and a leg but slowed him down enough that the landing didn't kill him, but he did have a concussion and bleeding head wound. While one person called 911 I had another wait outside to direct the ambulance to us. I had one person kneel and straddle the victims head with his knees to stabilize him in case there was a neck injury. He also held a compress to his head to stop the bleeding. I worked on the compound leg fracture to stop the bleeding and had another manager begin collecting a report from an employee that witnessed the fall. The store manager contacted the family and told them what hospital we were transporting him to. All this took less than ten minutes and the patient was in the ambulance and being taken to the hospital. That is why practice is important. Time matters. A scout neeeds to be able to stay calm and get the job done as quickly as possible. Had it not been for my scout training I am sure I would have been one of the ones crying over my friends body. Telling how to do first aid is not enough, not only must the scout show how to respond but, he must be shown what the real injury will look like and the emotional stress that must be ignored in order to be effective.

Laurie, As others have clearly explained "show" means show. But it's important to look at the bigger picture here and First-Aid is a perfect example. Even something as simple as treating a cut needs to be done correctly or the injury can easily worsen. There are different bandages for different body parts and they apply in specific ways. Can the scout select and apply the bandage correctly? That cannot be determined simply through oral explanation. When the cut is washed does the scout know how to clean it. You'd be surprised by the number of people who want to use hot water, but once the skin surface is broken underlying tissue far more sensitive to heat and can be damaged by incorrect washing. Did the scout use cold water? The other reason for actually doing the first aid treatment is that in a real emergency, time matters. The faster you can treat the injured the better chance you have of minimizing the harm. A scout needs to not only know what to do but how to do it correctly and quickly. Finally, scouts need to experience the environment of a trauma injury. They don't happen the way it looks in the book. Rarely will someone sit down beside you and say "I think I broke my arm right here, can you splint it, put it in a sling and call for help for me". Scouts need to be able to identify a person in need, make a reasonable assumption as to the injuries, prioritize them, treat them, and get help in a variety of situations. Making this interesting for scouts is what separates good scouting and great scouting. I recommend that the troops Instructors contact local emergency services and get on the Internet to learn about Moulage (trauma simulation). On our last campout, while we taught trauma first aid to the New Scout Patrol, the other scouts were in another room creating realistic injuries on each other for the New Scout patrol to treat. even after we told them that everything they were about to see was fake, and made possible by make up, their eyes and hearts nearly popped out of them when the SPL came in the room. He was pale an disoriented as he walked in with a steel rod apparently thrust through his upper arm with blood spilling out. The New Scouts panicked, not only could they not remember things they had learned just minutes before, but no one even thought to call for help. And that's what real life is like. Just being able to recite first aid is not enough. Unless people are thoroughly trained and practiced it is likely that they will freeze up when they are needed the most. Moulage can be used to inexpensively recreate almost any injury from a paper cut or blister to third degree burns and compound fractures. Here is just one website to get you started. http://www.whatcomcountyems.com/pdfs/BASIC%20MOULAGE.pdf Happy Scouting Bob White

18 degrees here!

Hi Future games, I can't believe I'm up this late but the flu is not allowing me to sleep very well. Your downfall was in splitting the unit. That part is probably pretty clear to everyone by now. If your unit has grown to the size that reaches the maximum abilitiy of your resources, the answer is is not in splitting the unit. The answer for the pack would have been to stabilize the membership by recruiting only as many Tigers as you have outgoing Webelos. The answer for the District is to find a new Chartering Organization in the community and start a new pack with new leaders. Then asking your Pack to volunteer to help mentor them. But don't break up a unit that works. When Pack B was formed did they have the same charter organization as Pack A? I think I understand what you are trying to tell us, that good units can fold. But honestly Future Games that is very, very, very, rare. You guys were doing fine until you messed with the recipe. At that point you opened yourself up to all kinds of conflicts. And as far as Pack B goes, their time is limited. A program such as you describe implodes from lack of substance. It may take as much as three years but if they do not change they will collapse. Bob White

I think sst3rd has made a pretty good overall evaluation based on what little we know. I would also agree with Acco40 that unless you are sharing cold statistics it is almost impossible to be a key player on one of the sides and be able to give an unbiased account of the personalities and events. I have never seen a good reason to divide a good unit. A unit should be allowed to grow as large as it can and still be able to deliver a quality program. But that is a decision for the Chartering Organization to make. We are there on their bequest to deliver the program. Whether we deliver it to 50 or to 100 should not affect us as leaders. I have no problem with multiple units in a community but the charter organization should be able to have access to enough youth to make the unit viable. Sharing recruitment night at the same school is seldom a good idea. I think sst3rd makes a good point about the boys who left A for a third pack. That is not a problem that pack B caused. That is a sign of internal problems in A. I am really sorry to see the string of events that affected your scouts. I am surprised that your local commissioner service refused to get involved. This is the kind of situation that they are there to assist with. My recommendation at this point would be to disassociate yourself with troop be. Do not recruit at the same time or location. Consider other avenues where eligible youth members can be reached for recruitment. Keep your attitude positive and your program fun. If you build it, they will come. Best of Luck, Bob White

To follow up on the training question that was asked. The SM is a Wood Badge Course Director, Of the ASMs, I have served on a few Wood Badge Staffs, two of the other Asistants have completed Wood Badge training and are now finishing their tickets. The remaining Assistant has completed two of three parts of his Basic Training. We have at least one other Assistant SM joining with the New Scouts in February and he has begun his training already. Twelve of the thirteen members of the Troop Committee have completed their Basic Training including the COR. All registerd leaders have had Youth Protection training within the last 18-months.

My only point Region 7 was that you used B-Ps comment out of context. He used it in the vein of encouraging and preparing boys for a military calling. The issue of gun ownership was not even existent in that era in England, so he would have had no reason to address the issue.

This entire thread is a yank at our collective chain by FOG and Ed. It is based on a fabricated premise that a poster, or posters, had used The Beatles as role models. No one had. They had simply refered to their music. I can say that I am amazed at Michael jordans athletic accomplishments without accepting the examples he has set in his personal life in any way, and without implying that he would be a good scout leader. He was a great athlete, just as the Beatles were great musicians. Nothing more was implied by anyone other than FOG and ED. Yes FOG condradicts himself between threads, we have all seen it but do not think he is the only one who does. Ed in this very thread said that the Beatles were poor role models, then he said that in his generation "everyone" wanted to look like them. "Everyone" Ed? Including you? You wanted to follow poor role maodels. I know lots of people in our generation that had no interest in looking like them. I have no idea how you have insight into what "everyone" wants. When I first pointed out that "everyone did not" you sarcastically answered "figures". But Ed, if you feel that the Beatles were such bad role models why would you not be thrilled to know that not everyone followed them? Finally lets look at a list of bands and musicians... "Van Morrison, Jefferson Airplane (not Starship), BB King, U2, The Who, The Beatles, Jethro Tull, Santana, Eric Clapton, ELP, Buddy Miles, Harry Nilsson, Bonnie & Delaney, Lynard Skynard, Pink Floyd, Jars of Clay, Aaron Bailey, david bailey, Miles Davis, Aerosmith and a lot more." See any dope users, sex addicts, adulterers and overall poor role models in there? How about it ED? Do you recognize the list. IT'S YOUR POST ED! from June 20th of 2003 These are folks YOU identified as some of your favorites. You even said "Love rock n roll" Now that's duplicitous. This thread's only purpose is to insult and incite everyone. That is the role that FOG and Ed have chosen for themselves. Do not kid yourselves for one minute that this thread was for any positive service to scouting, or scouts, or scouters. They act only as chum tossers in the sea of scouting. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

To say I called commandopro a liar, is untrue and simply offered as a disruption. I said I was in no position to form an opinion on who or what he was, based on the limited information I have. Unless you know someone personally, it would be unwise and naive to accept everything posted at face value. Who you are and what you are are controlled only by the buttons you push on a key board. Anyone can claim to be anything on the Internet, even change their identity again and again, simply by typing it in. Thousands of people each day are fooled by people on the Internet claiming to be something they are not. I am in no way saying that this is true of commandopro. I am saying that until I see a better example of his knowledge that I will not leap to a conclusion, or an acceptance, of who he is. I have used this same caution with every poster and have not yet been surprised by an incorrect evaluation.

You hit a couple right on the head, But a few that I think you need to re-evaluate. The three most important responsibilites for SPLs are... 1. To chair the Patrol Leaders Council using a written agenda prepared with the help of the Scoutmaster. 2. To run troop meetings and other events with a written agenda prepared with the help of the Patrol Leaders Council. 3. To delegate duties and responsibilities to other Junior Leaders. Other responsibilities include >Appoint Troop members to serve in other Junior Leader positions (with the advice and counsel of your Scoutmaster) > Assist the SM with training Junior Leaders >Set a good example, wear the uniform, show Scout Spirit. But it is the first three that have the biggest impact on your role as the SPL. THE BIGGEST TRAP. You are not there to "run" the boys. You are there to help the troop succeed by organizing and gaining coopreation of the other Junior Leaders. The Patrol Leaders run the patrols, your job is to help keep the patrol leaders organized and on track, based on the agenda they helped you to develop. When you say "making sure what needs to be done gets done.", you come close to crossing that line. It is the Patrol Leaders responsibility to get the patrols work done. Your job is to make sure the Patrol Leader has a clear understanding of the job and the resources needed to be be successful. If the SPL is going to be the the guy in charge of everything then there is no need for any other junior leader position. Just as if the Scoutmaster is the "in charge" of everything type, then there is no need for troop Committees or Assistant Scoutmasters. Everyone has a specific job to do you must allow them the opportunity to learn. "because young people tend to respect other people more than adults (or so the adults say)" It would truly be a shame if your Scoutmaster felt this way. I do not find that true at all. I think people respect others based on shared values. If they do not share similar values then there is a barrier making respect difficult. A Scout leader who knows and understands the needs and cgharacteristics of the scouts will not have a problem with respect and so will not need the SPL to run interference that way. BE CAREFUL about thinking you are there to make changes. The SPL elections should occur every 6 to 9 months. If every time a new SPL came in they started instituting changes, it would be very disruptive for the other scouts. You are there to follow the program and learn leadership techniques from the SM. If the SPL before you was following the program then the ship is on course, there is no need to change direction. So do not focus on making changes focus on organizing, supporting and developing yourself and other junior leaders. Does that make sense? Any questions?

I have no idea at this time who commando pro is or isn't. With the other professionals who posted, it is was evident very early from their responses that they were professionals. So far commando pro has only warned of a problem of epic proportion (not what I would call the typical pro-speak one hears from an experienced scouting professional), and to question DSteele about the frequency of his posts (something I would have thought he would have done off post or not at all if he did not know how). So until he comments on a couple other scout issues I have no idea who he is or isn't. Be assured, if he shows any knowledge at all of the scouting program, that I will know he could not be the person that Ed suggested. As far as who posts and when, welcome to the cyber age. There are ways to keep in touch with the forum that extend far beyond sitting at a work desk. Multi-tasking for many of us is a way of life. Bob White

Tamegonit, I'm anxious for an actual conversation about unit scouting rather than the other topics that have been put forward lately, and your request for tips for SPLs is just the thing to get my mind and attitude back on track. Before I can offer any tips it would be helpful to know what your understanding of the the job is. How about sharing what you understand the 3 main jobs of an SPL to be, and we will go from there. I look forward to your post. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not Everyone.

First Statement "we ...... find it half amusing and half pathetic at the level of insecurity among the American people" Last Statement "my meaning was that the media displayed the situation as pathetic, and that people were interpreting it as amusing." Am I the only person who sees absolutely no similarity in the meaning of those two statements? Achilleez if that last post was meant as an apology, it lacked two words. You forgot to say "I apologize".

"Sitting up here (in the land of Zed and eh), we ...... find it half amusing and half pathetic at the level of insecurity among the American people, especially during these holiday weeks." Those were your words Achilleez, regarding how you view the American people, and I found it insulting. What comparable act of terrorism took place in your country, in order for you to be amused by our "pathetic" behaviour. "I saw a phone-in television show the other day, with frightened citizens of L.A." Just how many did you see interviewed, that you were able to determine they represented the majority of the population of L.A. or anywhere else. The problem seems to be less the concerns of the American people, or the accuracy of the media, But your behavior to make conclusions based on a few news bites and the coffee chat of a few folks of unknown intelligence. That to me is both amusing and pathetic.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Aside from mourning the deaths of friends and acquaintances that died in the 9/11 attacks and worrying about my friends who are fighting overseas, my life has not changed at all. Hows that for cowardly. The rest I will private message to you.

And how many responses will it take before you form your opinion of 300,000,000 individuals?