Bob White

"If these conversations don't help then the boy should be removed of his office." Where in the scouting program is this ever described or supported? So if the teacher cannot teach then we dispose of the student? That certainly makes the job of the teacher must simpler doesn't it.

Did anyone suggest anything else? I thought we were only discussing how the knowledge of that service is gathered and evaluated.

I'm with Dan. I think that the speech leaves the impression that the uniform is only one of eight methods. When in fact it is one of only eight methods (or seven as in the cases of Cub Scouting and Venturing). Eight methods that make scouting the program that it is. It's not like you can ignore uniforming because it is ONLY one of the methods and you can do just fine with seven. Pay no attention to that flat tire, its only one of four. Every method has a purpose and a roll to play in achieving the aims and mission including the uniform. It deserves as much adherence as any other method. The Scouting program shows great respect for its membership both youth and adult. Do not the methods deserve as much respect in return? Nobody likes the nitpicking uniform police, bt many more do not like seeing the methods of scouting ignored, no matter which method it is.

I thought it was free now but I'll check.

"So as I understand advancement rules, if he held the position for 6 months, then he has completed that requirement no matter how much work he's done." That is incorrect. The requirement is not "hold the office for 6 months". The scout is required to "serve actively for _ months". What constitutes active is dependent on what expectations were explained to the scout, and how those expectations were fulfilled. To take an elected or selected troop officer and not tell them from the first day what their job is, or not give them the resources or training needed to succeed, and then tell them they did not do their job, is nothing short of an ambush. A very complete list of what is expected of a patrol leader is found on page 8 of the Patrol Leaders Handbook. On page 115 of the same handbook is a list of responsibilities for the Assistant Patrol Leader. They are a team. If the patrol leader does his job organizing, planning, and communicating, to the point where The APL is able to step in for him during the PL's absence, has he done his job. I think yes. The SM and the PL both know if he has been active or not. The role of the SM is to help the scout do a self-evaluation and be able to admit to himself and to the scoutmaster whether the agreed upon responsibilities were met or not. Did this scout meet his responsibilities, I don't know, because I don't know if he was ever told or trained as to what those responsibilities were. If the Scoutmaster didn't do his job, then I feel he has no right to punish the scout for not doing his. If the scout was aware of specific expectations and responsibilities, coach along the way in leadership skills, but did not do his job, then he has broken the agreement , and the advancement requirement has not been met. BW

Whether or not he has completed the leadership tenure is between the scout and the scoutmaster. The requirement stipulates that the scout must "actively serve". When the scout was elected what performance expectations were established? Did he fulfill the responsibilities of being a patrol leader as they were explained to him? The Scoutmaster needs to counsel the scout and ask him, "do you think you did the job that was expected of you", "can give me some examples?", the scout knows if he did a good job or not, and with the right questions asked of him will either prove that he did or he will have to admit that he did not. It is the Scoutmaster's job to guide him to the truth. Scout Spirit is the same. The Scout Handbook says that the scout is the best person to determine if he has lived his everday life by the Scout Oath and Scout Law. The scoutmaster should ask for evidence that the requirement has been met. Along with asking for examples outside of troop activities ask the scout about his treatment of other scouts to see if it is Friendly, Courteous and Kind. Next the adult leaders need to ask themselves if they are doing THEIR job correctly. Allowing a scout to physically bully or harrass other scouts is a violation of the Youth Protection policies, for which the Scoutmaster is directly responsible for interceeding in this situation. Such behavior is not to be tolerated and should have been immediately dealt with on the first incident. Much of the problems you have related could have been minimized or dealt with more effectively if 1) the scout was given clear instructions and expectations as soon as he was elected, 2) Regularly trained, and coached in successful leadership skills, 3) counseled by the SM or SPL when he showed signs of negligence 4) Had his behavior been dealt with in a more timely and concrete manner. This problem is not entirely the scout's, if the SPL and the SM have not done their job along the way. They need to look at both sides of the coin before they judge it's value. Bob White

Signaling was removed from the handbooks in the Mid 70's when the program bowed to some strong social pressures that insisted we needed to be appealing to inner-city populations in order to survive. Remember everyone was nuts in the mid 70's (for proof enter "Leisure Suit" in a Google search.). What we learned was, don't bow to social pressure or vocal minorities. In the early 1980s Bill Hillcourt was made the editor of the new book and he put signaling back in along with many other of the traditional skills, but it was an option for advancement not a required skill. By the end of the 90's signaling was no longer a feasible skill. Just as Morse and railroads replaced the Pony Express. The technology for of cell phones and walkie-talkies have become so compact, inexpensive , effective and widespread that the need and usefulness of Morse and semaphore disappeared. The greatest drawback of them being that not only do you need to know the code but it requires that another person with the same skill be close enough to see you. I had to know Morse Code as a scout and still know it pretty well. Outside of some Klondike Derbies as a scout I have used it exactly....NEVER. You cant keep everything the same and still grow. This is one skill that has seen its usefulness come to an end. Scouting has done a better job of keeping current than Morse did.

"but it is emcumbent upon the selection committee to look beyond the nominees of whom they have a personal knowledge and select the most deserving individuals." My point Two cub is, the more known the scouter is to the committee, the the better they can select the most deserving candidate. Often the committee comes up with far more information than the nominator included in the application. If it were not for the knowledge of the individual held by the committee the nominee might have been passed over. We want to make sure that the nominee is chosen by their service and not just by the content of the nomination. Not all nominations are complete, and some are greatly exagerated. It is the familiarity with the nominee that allows us to tell the difference.

I don't know if you have ever sat on a selection committee for Silver Beaver, Twocubdad, but here is my experience. Scouters from throughout the council, in my case a 14 county area meet one evening to review the nominations. We prioritize the list and then go around the table and explain our decisions. As a case for recieving the recognition is built the nominations get re-prioritized. If a nominee is not well know in the council then he naturally has less said about him by the committee as a whole. This has an effect on the selection. Now if the nominator is a well known and well respected scouter, that can balance things out. But since the decision is being made by a majority vote of representatives from throughout the council, then it stands to reason that a person known throughout the council will garner more support. When then select the top nominees for as many awards as we are allowed, in our case 7. We do not worry about how many are from what disrtict or if they are unit volunteers or financial supporters. We go by how they were prioritized by their deeds and the majority vote of the committee. Perhaps this has helped to explain why Council activity adds weight to the nomination. Bob

That is correct in the broader view, but in the context of this thread the question was regarding membership in a single Pack.

Hi Paul, Someone misunderstood. The rule is the COR can also be the CC. It's not that the CC can hold a second position. It's that the COR can. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Your correct that the two sashes are never worn at the same time, and neither is to be worn draped over a belt. A good rule of thumb is to wear the MB sash for formal troop occassions and the OA sash when representing the OA. Because your son is the troop's OA Representative he will have his choice on many occassions as to which would be appropriate. IN most of his cases as long as he just wears one and wears it correctly he'll be doing just fine. BW

As I said, you were on the right track. The green bars represent that he is a member of the PLC. Each New Scout Patrol gets 2 votes in the PLC the Patrol Leader and the Troop Guide both vote to represent the new scouts. This is to balance the representation of the New Scouts who are usually the minority of the troop. I would agree that you could look at as a co-leadership in some ways. Because leadership is changinging every 30 to 60 days, the TG adds a continuity to the development of the patrol. But, since the TG is a temporary member of the NSP it is important that the actual patrol members be allowed to lead themselves with the guidance of the TG. As a practical matter that is how the NSP is designed to function.

OOPS! Make that KISMIF There ar esome things even spell check misses.

Laurie This appears to be a locally generated list of pack positions and they have incorrectly coded the Committee members (they should be MC), and incorrectly included the Pack Trainer and Assistant Cubmaster as required for chartering. Unless they were added in the last few months these are not required for charter renewal but are need for Quality Unit Award. A call to your council registar should solve the confusion. Ask them to send you a photo copy of the national instructions. Bob White

The Distric Award of Merit is not a district award and the Silver Beaver is not a council award. The District Award of Merit is the highest service award presented by the BSA for service within a district, it is approved at the council level. The Silver Beaver Award is the highest service award that the BSA presents within a Council.The decision of the selection committee must be reviewed and approved by the BSA's National Court of Honor, so it actually comes from National. Each council is allowed to set it's own standards. There are no requirements for either award other than membership in scouting. They are not "earned", they are bestowed. Each individual brings different qualities and resources to the program. The selection committee looks at the nominations, as well as at scouters that were not nominated but are known to the committee, and determines who should be recognized and for what reasons. In most cases of the Silver Beaver, service beyond the unit level is highly regarded by the selection committee. So is major financial support. Not everyone is at a time in their lives when they can give personal time, but still realize the need for a strong scouting program and so they support it with the resources they have at their disposal. To think that one level of scouting is more important than another is unfortunately short sighted. Scouting is a movement that requires hard work and dedication at many levels in order to have a strong, long lasting, program to serve youth. To give such importance to any one level is to turn a blind eye to the efforts of thousands of others. Bob White

The quality unit Application has two columns. The left column is a record of your last year for which you are applying for the award, the right column is a goal setting column for this year, for which you will apply for Quality unit at your next charter renewal time. So left column is what was, right column is goal setting. If a scout has leaft the pack for Boy scouting, simply strike his registration line off of your membership roster paperwork in your renewal packet. it is the troops responsibility too show that he has transfered or is a new troop member. To correct unit positions, strike the incorrect office and write the correct position code next to it. If the change is from DL to WL there is no need to include a new application. But if for instance it is from Mc to DL, or DL to CC, or CC to CM, then a new apllication with the required signatures should be sent in with the Charter.

I thought you said he was at fewer than half the meetings, now you say he never comes. If he never comes then why even wory about the material. Cubbing is not about the "stuff", and it's not about mom or dad. It is about what you can bring to the cubs through the methods of the cubbing program. The store will get more felt soon. Do something different until then. The cub resource books are filled with fun inexpensive activities that will help the cubs in their advancement. Mom is more likely to bring her son if she feels that she and her son are welcomed because you like him, not because his absence is an inconvenience to your budget. You are allowing mom's personal problems to distract you from your purpose. Focus on the fun you have with the kids. KIMIF..Keep it simple make it fun. BW

I believe you have listed the positions incorrectly. You have listed the Committee Chair twice. I believe what you are looking at is a list of all the position codes and not the list or required positions. I do not believe that Pack Trainer or an Assist Cubmaster are required for charter renewal (the Asst. CM is needed for the Quality Uit Award). The IH can be the COR. The COR can also be the CC. Other than that, your original list seems accurate to me, a cubmaster, a committee chair, a COR, 2 committee members, at least one Den Leader for each rank for which you have a cub. Re-read your paperwork and repost the list of rerquired positions. BW

nosretep, Mom obviously has some person issues. You are not going to change mom, or solve her problems. But that's Okay, because that's not what you are supposed to be doing. Scouting (and your Den meetings), for all we know, provides the best moments in this boy's life. So what if mom can't afford scouting, she does want her son to be there for some reason. Is it possible she didn't have the funds for the afterschool program either and was subsidized for that as well? Explain the problem to the pack and ask them to sponsor this boy in scouting. Is it so bad to have some red felt left over in order to befriend this boy? (By the way two bucks a week is twice what any pack I have ever known charges for den dues, just something to consider). So what do you do about the parent? Nothing. Do for the boy, you could be his hero for the rest of his life, and give him the care and the character that he is missing at home. Bob White

Neil up, You are on the right track. The solution to Webelos to Scout transition is the New Scout Scoout patrol as you pointed out. But, the Troop Guide is not the leader of the patrol. The patrol leader is a member of the NSP and is "guided" by the Troop Guide. The TG does not lead the patrol. He teaches and guides each new scout as they take their turn at being the patrol leader. It is a important distinction. Laurie, you are right. Leaders should be allowed to learn from their mistakes, providing they are willing to accept that they made a mistake and are willing to change.

100% with Eamonn.

From what you shared Laurie it sounds as if the training your husband attended was the one that was retired about 18-months ago, Scoutmastership Fundementals. The current basic training, Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, is very different. The three sections, which can be done in one day or in three sections of about 2 1/2 hours each, have only a vague connection to the outdoor course, Introduction to Outdoor Skills, which covers the outdoor skills needed to advance from Tenderfoot to First Class. As you point out the 3-hour Cub Leader training and 7 1/2-hour Scout Leader training are very different. The Cub training is aimed toward teaching adults how to run a Cub Program at the Den and Pack level. The Scoutmaster training focuses largely on how Scouting is unique by its ability to train youth to lead themselves. It spends a lot of time instruct and assuring adults that with the proper preparation the youth can do the job themselves. Rather than being designed as a transition for cub leaders, it is designed for any adult to be able to understand and deliver a scouting program regardless of their background. The best way I think a Cub leader can make the transition between programs is by doing it the same way the boys do it, through the New Scout Patrol. If a second-year Webelos Leader or other Cub Leader is looking to cross over, I suggest they take the SM/ASM training during their last year in cubbing and offer to work as an ASM for a New Scout Patrol under the guidance of an experienced Assistant Scoutmaster. You will find there are few comparisons between the role of Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. They are both challenging and rewarding, but very different in their responsibilities, methods and goals. One more thing I'd like to add. Nowhere in the SM training does it teach that the older scouts lead the troop. It teaches that boys elect their leaders, and that if you train the scouts to lead, and do your role as a counselor and evaluator, the age of the scout has no relevance. Remember that it's not about how smoothly the troop runs but how much the scout learns and develops in his character.

"If you do not stand for something, then you will fall for anything". The BSA does not ask or expect a person of any age to understand all the mysteries of God, or to be able to follow every tenet of their religion to the letter. They are not required to have unswerving faith, as each of us have times of doubt. They are asked only one thing, to accept that God exists, in whatever form or name you choose to worship Him in. Even to wonder about how He exists, or why He exists, or how He is present in our lives is open to questioning. But the BSA says that "no child can develop to his/her fullest potential without a spiritual element in his/her life." I would ask this scout to be open to the existence of God, and to develop a spiritual element in his life. If the answer is no then he has chosen not to live by the Oath and Law. With out that capability he cannot be a Scout. If our mission was to teach knots and lashings and how to cook on an open fire, then he could stay. But that is not our mission. And without a belief in God he has refused what we have to offer him. Why join a swim team if you refuse to accept the existence of water?

Not in the current uniform. As other have mentioned there are ties from past uniform elements that you might still find on e-bay or in garage sales. There was never a problem with the tie. The problem was the pants. The tie was made to be the same color as the uniform pants, and had a nice "uniform" look. Because of the difference in materials, and the fact that not everyone wears the pants the same amount of time, in the same amount of sunlight, and washes them the same number of times in the same detergent, the pants change color ovwer time. I have three uniform pants all of different age and slightly different style and none are the same color as the tie (let alone each other). They just do not look good with the tie any longer. Because they could not get the tie and pants to match the tie was dropped. At least that was the explaination I was given a few yeqars back.