Bob White

Eagle92 writes"I have not gone through WB yet, either the original course or the WB21C." A side note Eagle92, you are probably not old enoght to have gone through the "original" course, or even through the second, third or fourth version of Wood Badge in the US. The last version prior to this current one was not the orignal or even an early version, it was simply the last before this version and this is not the last version that there will ever be. Everything changes.

You are correct, however it is on a different scale then the previous course. And we agree on the point of the post that with the changes enacted in the current course there is no need to have a pre-course session.

Yes, it would impact it. On a unit web site that would be prohibited since a unit is required to offer a quality product or service in exchange. Scout units MUST offer a product or service in exchange.

The constant use of the term "police" is very inappropriate to the role of a commissioner or a DE or any who has the responsibility to support the standards of the BSA. It would be nice if every Scout leader monitiored themselves and made good decisions based on the values of Scouting, but they don't. You do not need to read many threads on this forum to see that there are scouters both new and experienced who through choice or lack of training misuse many aspects of the BSA programs and its rules. Someone has to be trained and responsible to help resolve those issues or to at least protect others from that behavior. The most common methods, as I believe I posted earlier, is friendly persuasion, counseling, mentoring, and training. And it would be wonderful if everyone responded to that in the friendly and helpful mannner in which it is offered. But they do not always. And so the determiniation has to made as to how it is handled and by whom. These issues will usually not go to the outdoor activities committee, or the publicity committee, or the advancement committee, because none of those district or council functions are designed to be responsible for supporting the standards of the BSA. These issues come to volunteers and professionals who wear the wreath of service. Even in this forum think of how often problems have been addressed by posters with the call to "contact you unit commissioner". The Commissioners staff are not the police, they are the volunteers trained in what the program methods, rules, and resources are and in how to approach the situations when they occur. Do all commissioners understand this, no, just as all Scoutmasters do not know their job. But it is the structure that has been developed by the BSA. And when properly selected and trained commissioners meet with properly selected scout leaders most issues are easily resolved. Let's also remember what police realy do. Their primary purpose is not to seek out and punish lawbreakers. Their primary purpose is to make sure that others are safe and able to do what they want without being endangered by the law breakers. In that sense only are commissioners similar to police. The unltimate goal of commissioning is to insure that every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scouting program.

First, Good for You! Rearranging patrols each year is a horrible practive. The BSA recommends that patrols work best when they are natural groups of scouts of similar ages and interests. To that end is to best to let Scouts select their own patrol group. Here is a method that has worked well for many years. Lets say you were making 5 patrols of 7 or 8 scouts leaving room then for the troop leadership positions. First hold your election for SPL and him select his junior leaders. Then, wiith the remaininging scouts have each one take an index card and write their name on the top and the names of 4 other scouts they would like to be in a patrol with under their name. Take a large sheet of paper and write all the scouts names across the top creating columns and all the names in the same order don the side to create intersecting rows. Taking Tom T.'s index card go across his row and put an X in his colunm and in the column of each scout he wants in his patrol. Do this with each scout. When the chart is complete you will be able to look at the columns and see definite patterns of scouts who want to be together. You and the SPL using the chart create the patrol groups recommended by the scout's choices on the chart. I would then bring in the scout who was the most selected in each patrol and show them the results and get their input. Used correctly this method results in the scouts being in a patrol with scouts who they selected or who selected them. These groups tend to form bonds very quickly and work well together. Good Luck. Change is never easy, but cases such as this it is surely needed and the right thing to do. BW

To answer Its Me's questions "Would asking my company for some money for troop tents be a violation of the don't ask no donation policy?" You may not solicite donations for the unit without an exchange of product or services "If I ask for a discount for a trip or for rental equipment is that a donation?" You may not solicites donations for a unit without exchanges of a product or service. In addition the unit has no authority to sign a contract on behalf ofthe unit or the BSa. Only the council has that authority. "So in this game of don't ask, no donation policy comes down to the legal definition of who talks first. But if I show up in uniform am I announcing I am a scouter? Did I speak first in that situation?" It comes down to the rule that you CANNOT SOLICITE DONATIONS WITHOUT EXCHANGING A PRODUCT OR SERVICE. Telling someone you need to by lumber for a church project is not soliciting it is purchasing. If the company offers to give you a discount because of the nature of the project that is not soliciting that is a business chaoice that the lumber company chose to make. ASKING FOR THE DISCOUNT is soliciting. If in asking for the discoutn you use the name or image of Scouting then you are in violation of BSA fundraising policies. "But its ok if the donation jar is hidden behind the counter. It can be pulled out when the other guy first mentions the word donation." It is soilicting! It is simply holding out your hand and begging for mony. it is a violation of the BSA fundraising popicies for units. In addition it is lazy and embarrasing. You have a group of young people who you are supposed to be teaching better values to. Go work for your income and stop begging as if they were helpless street urchins. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

While the unit may not solicite for donations the charter organization can certainly fund the unit. What fundraising the charter organization does is up to their rules and the laws of the State or local community and how they distribute those funds is up to their administrators. However they should still have the permission of the local council to use the names or images of scouting for fundraising. As the legal respresentative of the BSA in the council area, the Scout executive should be informed of anyone who is using the name or images of Scouting to raise money from the public. The more appropriate thing for the minister to say is that they are taking a collection to support a youth program within the church, then they can direct the funds to whatever youth program or programs they choose. In the same vein, if the charter organization wanted to put out donation jars to support their youth programs, the BSa has no say in the manner. It is when they put the BSA names or emblems on the can that they violate the fundraising policies since no product or service ios being offered. As for evmori's question, I block his posts, for obvious reasons, which is why I do not know or answer his questions.

Any age person can teach, but the person who tests and approves the work must be 18 or older and a registerd merit badge counselor.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"if just three co-ed members of the crew (ages 15, 17, and 17; all are crew officers: treasurer, secretary, and v.p.) carried out a service project in a public park only about 150 yards from where the adults were, was this a violation of anything?" Why would it be? You said there were adult leaders present right? Thei ages and offices are irrelevant. and since it is not an overnight activity their gender is not relevant either. They are crew members at a crew activity, so it requires two deep leadership.

The local units cannot put out a can that says "for the Scouts" without the knowledge and permission of the local council. They especially cannot give the appearance that that thay are collecting for all scouts and then give the money to only one unit. The BSA unit fundraising policies state that the a product or service must be offered. There are no exceptions.

The pre-course meeting was deleted in the revised course but it had nothing to do with the "feelings" of local executives. The previous course required the participants to alter their uniform before arriving, the new course does not. The old course required the patrols to plan plan their patrol gear, the new course does not. The old course required the the patrols to plan for an overnight hike, the new course doe not. The pre-course was eliminated becaused the new course is designed so that no pre-course orientation is required.

The training continuum is designed so that each person in cubbuing can receive the basic information needed to do their role in the pack correctly. As a cubmaster you should be able to tale the New Leader Essentials course and the Cubmaster Job Specific course and be just fine. Within the Cubmaster course it explains your relationship and responsibiliteis to the Committee chair, the committee, the Den Leaders and the assitant Cubmasters. There is no need to take their courses as well.

My error, I belive that completion of the Den Chief Training. which is now on-line is the basic training for the office of Den Chief.

Completion of the BSA's unit level Troop Leadership Training program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

At no time did I suggest that commissioners were superior or that they were uniform police. Each office in scouting has specific responsibilities and purposes. There are some that are charged by the BSA to help support the standards of the BSA. These p[articular volunteres and professionals are identified by a "wreath of serice" that appears on the their position emblem. Not police not superior, just one position of many positions each with their own responsibilities helping to support the standards of the BSA happens to be a specific an unique responsibility given to commissioners.

"A reasonable person could interpret that to mean that coed daytime activities, such as a day hike or trip, do not require both male and female adult leaders (or even adult leaders, period). " A reasonable person would be half right. Coed day activities do not require coed adult leadership, just two-deep adult leadership. BW writes: As far as a Ship or a Ship's crew (the equivalent of a patrol in a troop) having an outing or activity without adult supervision and having it be a Scout activity. According to the BSA you are correct, that would be prohibited. Kahuna asks "And can you show us exactly where that is written?" I can show you where it is not mentioned as an exception to the two-depp leadershipo rule. The only exception mention in any handbook or any portion of YP training is for Boy Scout Patrols. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The onle pre-training needed for Wood Badge is to attend the basic training courses for your role in scouting either in person or on-line. That is really all you need to do.

GW you do yoursekf futher disservice by quoting people oyt of context. My resonse was specifically to Nike regarding the use of a donation jar. Setting out a jar does not offer a product or service in return and so it is prohibited by the policies of the BSA for unit money earning. This would includie begging for money to feed the troop llama. SSScout, the rules for what the Council can do are different then what units can do. Councils use the name and images of the BSA, for which they are the representatives, to raise funds used to benefit ALL units in the community. Where as a unit needs permission to use the name and images of the BSA if they are raising money that only benefits that unit.

I doubt they spent the whole day on it. But did you never wonder why commissioners are the only volunteers that have a patch that looks like the ones worn by professionals?

That is not my contention at all GW, that is your misrepresentation of what I said the rules of the BSA were in order for you to bolster your opinion. I never said that. I said that the BSA does not allow units to solicite for a donation. Placing the jar out is no different then standing there with your hand out. It is soliciting, and it is prohibited by the policies of the BSA If you offer to sell someone some popcorn and they pay you but choose not to take the product you did not solicite the donation, you offered a product.

ASM915 I did not condone all infractions being handled at the unit lebvel just the ones that appropriate to being handled at the unit level. You must understand that the BSA has at its disposal only two punishments for rule violations. 1) Removal of the Charter 2) Pernmanent revokation of a persons BSA membership. That's it. So those are not swords that are wielded carelessly. So the best way to approach rule violations is through training and counseling. Units on the other hand have far more options at their disposal. Since the unit volunteers belong to the unit and the unit belongs to the charter organization. The CO has the ability to bring the leader into line without having to to go to the degrees that the Council or national has. The unit can remove the Scouter from office and reassign him, the BSA/Council cannot. The unit can suspend the scouter, the BSA/Council cannot. The unit can insist the adult attend training The BSA cannot. (The BSA can exclude the scouter from certain activities for not being trained but they cannot force him or her to go to training) So you see it makes perfect sense to first try to resolve things at the individual and then unit level before it progresses to the council. Now to your specific questions. "So what if a Scout gets abused by a leader A Child abuse situation goes immediatley to the Council Scout Executive and the local authorities. Een if no abuse can be proved if it is found that a Youth Protection safeguard was ignored then the adult will likely be permanently removed form the BSA. " or a Venturer returns from a backcountry excursion pregnant because she was allowed to tent with the oppisite sex Both youth members and the Adult leader present who allowed the rule to be ingored will likely have their BSA memberships permanently revoked. I agree with you that there are leaders who put very little stock in the rules they said they would obey. I find it sad that they do not seehow badly that reflects on their personal character and how poorly it speaks of their selection as scout leaders. However they belong to the chartering organization and unless the infractions are serious enough for their removal from the program they will likely remainas a blemish on the charter organization and on the scout unit unitil they quit or are replaced. As you can tell from some of the posts on this forum there are still people who say they are active scouters who do not fully accept their obligation as role models of citizenship by obeyong the rules of the program as they said they would. The DE who stayed in the cabin with his fiance at Cub Camp is just one example of that. No amount of counseling or training will be more effective than selecting quality people. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Nike, Taking funds without exchanging it for a product or service is a violation of the BSA money earning policies for units. BadenP's only interest is to be confrontational with me and he apparently has no actual interest in helping you get the right information.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Your words not mine BadenP, I never said I was in a test course just that I know when the material was developed and when the pilots were done. It was Eagle 92 who said he was the "guinea pig" not me. Your insults are misdirected. It is unfortunate that you continue to use personal insults rather than just discuss the topics.

First BadenP is wrong. The wreath of service designates people who are commissioned by the BSA to uphold the programs, policies and procedures of the BSA. If the wreath designated positions tied to Council/national service then it would also appear on the positions of responsibility for District Chairmen, Concil presidents, council committee members, national committee members, Council executive board members, Area and Regional Presidents, or the National President. But it doesn't. Anyone who was a professional Scouter would know that. Now how are rules enforced? Usually very privately and in a very positive manner whenever possible. For instance, when a unit is violating an advancement policy, the usual approach is through the program leader to bring their attention to the problem and to guide them toward the resource or training that will put them on the right track. This is usually done by the DE or a Commissioner. When this doesn't work the DE or Commissioner will notify the Committee Chair and Charter organization representative of the problem, explain that the unit leader was notified and chose not to correct the problem. They would remind the the CR and CC of the their agreement withthe BSo abide by its policies and that if the problem is not resolved it could result in the termination of the units charter with the BSA. In some cases such as those involving youth protection, depending on the specific infraction and once it has been determined that the policy was indeed violated, the adult responsible wil be informed by a District or council professional or a commissioner that the the behaviour is unacceptable and that this is there first and final warning and that another infraction could result in the individuals permanent revocation of membership. This is often done in writing as a follow-up. The documentation is also given to the SE, who would be the one to actually take that step if needed. But most of the time infractions are handled through positive coaching, counseling, and training. Policing is not an term that accurately represents the methods used by the professionals and volunteers of the BSA charged with helping to maintain the program standards. Observation, evaluation, and persuasion is more accurate. Do Commissioners and DEs ignore some infractions? Absolutely, there are other aspects of the job that are more fun and more productive to deal with. That doesn't mean they aren't noticed and montiored to make sure they do not become hurdles to the program. Do some commissions pick on the little things and ignore the big stuff? Yes. Unfortunately when you are dealing with the number of volunteers that the BSA has you will always have some people who do the job really well and some who do it very badly. Just like with unit volunteers good selection and good training will produce good volunteers.

Many volunteers also come the medical industry, many from the military, many from the field of education, many are engineers, many are members of management, many are laborers, many are from the legal profession, many are from law enforcement, many are fire fighters, many are from mass communications services, many are from advertising agencies, many are from the retail industry, many are from State and Federal conservation services. None of which precludes any of them from having the knowledge to teach nature effectively. You cannot possible tell all the things a person is knowledgable in simply by knowing what their profession is. To say that if they are from the IT professions that they would be "lost in the woods" is another unprovable and absurd generalization. It lacks any basis in logic. It is as sloppy a premise as was the original comment regrading "many (most) scouters are really not well equipped to identify trees and animal signs" it is unmeasurable and offensive.