Bob White

Allow me to juxtapose two quotes from two different people who claim to know a lot about scouting and have strong opinions about life. The first is from Wheeeler. "Fun. Do you not think that maybe you are giving a false impression of life. Are you really preparing them for life? Is real life about having fun?" You may recognize the second quote "I believe that God put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness doesn't come from being rich, nor merely from being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step towards happiness is to make yourself healthy and strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful, and so can enjoy life when you are a man. Nature will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented with what you got, and make the best of it; look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one. But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you found it, and when your turn comes to die you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but have "done your best". "Be Prepared" in this way, to live happy and die happy; stick to your Scout Promise always--even after you have ceased to be a boy--and God will help you to do it. Your friend, Baden-Powell" Wheeler, Is scouting supposed to be fun? Yes. Is life supposed to be fun? BP thought so, and so do many of us. Unfortunately you do not see the joy, and happiness in this jolly world that Baden-Powell and so many of us see. I feel sorry for you. I get a clearer and clearer picture of just what you are trying to sell here Wheeler and while you may find a few willing converts to your mission, for the most part you are wasting your time. By in large the kind of people that volunteer for scouting are good, positive, happy people. They do not see the see the clouds of doom that you see. Not because they don't want to, or refuse to, but because we know the clouds are not there. The cloud looms over you because it is your cloud. You have created it, you allow it to grow darker through your own pessimism and insecurities. That may be your world, but it is not ours, and it is not the real world. I will ask again, what is your role in scouting today and what adult leader training have you taken that has given you such a unique impression of who we are, what our purpose is and how we achieve our goals? I sit with the squelch button at the ready, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In the past visitors have been allowed at jamboree however the 2005 jamboree may be different . The event has been held at Ft. A.P. Hill Army Base since 1980. Because of the current political climate it is possible that the base will be closed to visitors. I do not know that any final decision has been made this early by the military. But be aware that there is the possibility that the Jamboree could be closed to visitors. It's possible that a decision will not be made until shortly before the event. Bob White

It will take personal- one on one- conversation. If they are unwilling to do it because of the time it is offered, ask what time they would do it and work with the traiing committee to make it happen. If they just do not see the need or do not want to get trained...release them from their responsibilities as a volunteer leader. You selected the wrong person. Select someone willing to do the job right.

Two links that were part of a post in this thread did not appear once posted. They are NJ- "I know there was a majority, but I don't know if there was a consensus. The BSA says- http://www.scouting.org/media/press/020206/index.html and NJ- "That may be what you see. I see a political/religious agenda among religious/social/political activists to force their anti-gay agenda on others." The BSA says- http://www.scouting.org/media/positions/diversity.html Please take the time to read these. Bob White

I think you will find your answer in the sweet 16 os Sfety found in the Scoutmaster Handbook and in the Guide to Safe Scouting. Section one says "Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care. The supervisor should be sufficiently trained, experienced, and skilled in the activity to be confident of his or her ability to lead and teach the necessary skills and to respond effectively in the event of an emergency. Field knowledge of all applicable BSA standards and a commitment to implement and follow BSA policy and procedures are essential parts of the supervisor's qualifications." If you belive that the skills and confidence of your ASMs meet these guidelines then you are fine. Ultimately the Scoutmaster is responsible for the well bing of the scouts. If you do not feel thatthe skills of the scout are sufficient for adequate safety then you need to train them longer before you attempt the activity. You will find the entire Sweet 16 of Safety here... http://www.gulfcc.org/Safety%20-%20Sweet%2016.htm

I'm with you Eamonn. The many leaders I have worked with do not talk about the politics of scouting, we are to busy playing the game of scouting. I think thats why I get so disappointed reading supposed leaders of the program being so degrading of it. But that's just me.

How did some units determine that they could change the uniform? How did the singular of Webelos become Webelo in so many units? Why do so many think you have to be in uniform when you travel to be covered by insurance? Why do some scoutmasters set attendance rules for Scout Spirit? Why do so many Board of Reviews retest scout skills? None of these things were ever a part of the scouting program and yet they are commonly found in many units. It's because we have had millions of people as leaders in the scouting program and not everyone knows or follows the program to the same degree. Everything you do as a leader has the potential to hurt or help. That's why knowing and following the program as a leader is so important.

What I know is that there are currently members, like yourself, who although they are homosexual are not being sought out, hunted down or exposed by the BSA or its members in accordance with the rules and values of the BSA. I know that if you were to avow that you believed in, supported, or practiced, behavior that the BSA determined did not advance our goals, methods or values, they would require you to leave. So you have chosen to hide your beliefs and belong to an organization whose values and rules you do not agree with. I personally could not do that and have little respect for those who do. Anyone who disagrees with the policies of the BSA is free to stand outside the membership and disagree. That is a core freedom of the USA. That does not mean they have the right to be members, only the right to disagree freely. I respect people who know what they stand for and stand for it. But you hide in a program where you disagree with their values and whisper your disagreement in anonymity. I see no honor in that.

Man this is a tough crowd, you know what I'm sayin? I just lost two and a half stars and I all I did was loosen my tie. Man, I get no respect around here, know what I'm sayin?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a Scoutmaster I kept a list of what merit badges I had given a scout a bluecard for. I kept the list on a couple of index cards in my pocket. every know and then in the course of casual converstaions with a scout I would glance at the card and ask them how they were doing on the MB. I kept light, a reminder to them that I knew what they had started. It's their effort, their badge, their rank. The less I pushed the more it was theirs.

I would be happy to respond Bob White- HHMMM, NJ says that that there is a general consensus that homosexuality is moral. NJ- "I'd like you to show me where I said that. Don't bother looking, because I didn't say it, nor would I say it, But you wrote "But I believe that in our current society, where there is no longer any consensus that homosexuality is immoral," If the consensus as you believe no longer feels it is immoral then they feel it is.......You can't be right both ways NJ. NJ- "I know there was a majority, but I don't know if there was a consensus. The BSA- NJ- " Non-sectarian also refers to the acceptance of different religious beliefs," Bob White responds- and hike can mean to pass a football between your legs, but not in the context of scouting. Taking a social stand that accepts homosexuality is not the same as a religious belief. NJ- "Being in scouting or any other private organization is not an individual right. It is a choice of the private organization. Don't you ever get tired of saying things like that?" BW responds- Tire of reminding you of the truth. Never, in fact I find it quite cathartic. NJ- "I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith. Do I try to get Judaism to believe what I believe? Or, do I join a church that shares my beliefs? I thought the BSA wasn't a religion.' BW- nice try counselor but you and every one who read that understood that the comparison was between two private organizations having the right and ability to determine its own membership. NJ- "Look at what the BSA did to the UUA. I know you think that was a good idea, Bob, I think it was disgraceful." BW- What was disgraceful, well at least distasteful was the UUA's attempt to dismiss the membership regulations of the BSA that they had signed a contract to follow. Members of the UUA are to this day welcomed as members of the BSA as long as they meet the same membership requirements of every other BSA member. They are welcome to attend their church and practice their religion. What has changed is the UUA is not allowed to charter a scout unit because they violated their charter agreement, and until they agree to the same regulations that every Charter Organization agrees to their status with the BSA will remain unchanged. NJ- "I thought the BSA wasn't a religion. " BW- it isn't a religion, it is religious. Which brings us to... NJ " the belief that homosexuality is immoral has no other foundation than a religious one." BW- see previous statement. NJ " No one HAS to belong to scouting. If you share scoutings values then you GET to be a member. That assumes that the people currently making the rules are correct as to what "Scouting's values" are, and in this one case, I don't think that's true." BW- No, that assumes nothing. Regardless of what the values are, or aren't, the fact is that the BSA is a private organization and unless you meet the membership requirements, no matter what they might be, you do not GET to be a member. NJ- "That may be what you see. I see a political/religious agenda among religious/social/political activists to force their anti-gay agenda on others." The BSA says- NJ- "Do you really, truly think that James Dale was just trying to use the image of Scouting to validate his "lifestyle choice" (as you call it)?" BW- No, I think he violated the membership standards of the BSA. I believe now he does not seek to provide a quality scouting program for youth, he seeks retribution. I feel bad for him. The rights of the BSA are as validate as any rights and protections granted to any other private citizen or organization in the United States of America. The "wants" of avowed homosexuals and atheists do not outweigh the "rights" of the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I believe it was the intentention of the BSA to have the shoulder loops reflect the program affiliation of the wearer, not the mood of the wearer. Certainly being present in a proper uniform provides as much comfort for the family as showing up in an improper uniform. Your ASM does not have the authority to change the Field uniform beyond the options offered by the BSA. A black neckerchief would be a unit option allowable under the uniform policies of the BSA. Perhaps you could persuade the ASM to make an adaption that he is actually allowed to make.

This thread was spun from another thread.In response to NJ There is consensus among the executive board members of the BSA and the chartering organizations they represent. The fact is that non-sectarian refers to the acceptance of different religious worships. Homosexuality while accepted as some as a "lifestyle" has never to my knowledge been accepted as a religion. BSA is non-sectarian. Anyone of any religious belief may join. HHMMM, NJ says that that there is a general consensus that homosexuality is moral. Evidently that word hasn't reached everyone in Boston yet, or in the Midwest, and when I lived in the Mid-Atlantic states it wasn't a consenus there either. Being in scouting or any other private organization is not an individual right. It is a choice of the private organization. I cannot be a leader in the Jewish faith if I don't agree to practice the beliefs of the Jewish faith. Do I try to get Judaism to believe what I belive? Or, do I join a church that shares my beliefs? No one HAS to belong to scouting. If you share scoutings values then you GET to be a member. It's not like there is a mass of homosexuals who fell that they HAVE to be scout leaders. It's that there is a political agenda among social activists who are using the image of scouting to validate their lifestyle choices. They have no concern about the ideals or goals of the program, only to see their cause "socially cleansed" through the acceptance of the BSA. rank this post

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's true and national has started to do that with some materials. More and more all the time. Traing manuals and district and Council materials are a good example. Rountable Annual Planning Guides are now distributed trhough ScoutNet. More training programs are going on line interactively. Guide to safe Scouting has been on line for a couple years now. I expect to see this trend continue. Slowly.

Being disconcerned with being labeled as a member of the uniform police (two of my brothers proudly serve as police officers), I will remind our young thread originator that there is no such thing in the BSA as a "Class A" uniform. There is a field uniform which is worn for formal occassions, which I agree looks better in dress shoes, and will even earn you a higher score on the uniform inspection sheet (just like you will score better at a job interview in dress clothes with dress shoes). I would not recommend the field uniform for a tromp through the woods however. For those activities there is also an activity uniform (no such thing as a "Class B" uniform either) which can include athletic shoes or hiking boots. What's important about being prepared is not always visually pleasing. A scout is in a learning process not a finished state. If he wears the wrong apparel for an event he can learn valuable lessons from the experience. I would never allow such lessons to threaten his life (if you wear tennis shoes when there is snow on the ground then you don't go camping with us) but the technology of athletic shoes is not the same as when I wore my Keds or Red Ball Jets, so I have no problem with a good pair of athletic shoes on the right activity.

"Why is the BSA within their rights to keep out certain members? This is your favorite? It will be a very fast research. all you need to do is read the Supreme Court's majority decision. It will tell you that they determined the BSA to be a private organization. That alone gives them the right. But I still do not see how this relates to communication? How does the BSA market itself and it's programs? What methods are used by the local council to communicate to volunteers, and memebers and their families? How does the BSA communicate program and policy information to a world wide organization? What have been the drawbacks and benefits for scouting brought about by the Internet?

There is a very useful tracking sheet that groups the requirements for Tenderfoot to First Class by what can be done while camping, at troop meetings, during service projects, etc. Using monthly themes based on the advancement skill groups is also a good way to plan an effective first year program. The Troop Program Resource Notebooks are excellent for that. Bob white

"Also, we need to become more SCIENTIFIC. Raising and training boys is not an haphazard, willy-nilly, approach." What? What is your adult leader training experience with the BSA Wheeler? Are you at all familiar with the training continuum, its elements and methodology? What was the last scout leader training you attended? What leadership position do you hold in scouting today? You are to be credited for you ability to spout ancient philosophers with such ease. But what is your experience as an adult member of the BSA?

You are right Accu, I did, and I apologize. Bob

So, what is your point?

acco40, Have you ever actually read a "scouts own" service? If so what specifically did you find at fault? Have you ever managed a district or council wide event and tried to coordinate the logostics and resources of supplying regular worship services that met the needs of every religion represented by the membership in attendance? What is your personal solution to supporting the ideal of "reverence" when dealing with a large group of mixed religious beliefs? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Soory for the underlining, it was an editing flub. According to Webster, nonsectarian means " not affiliated with or restricted to a particular religious group", does NJ now classify homosexuality as a religion? You will find a position statement on the BSA national web site that clearly states the "rule" that NJ says does not exist. I think many would like to help you Venture if we understood what you wanted. Your questions do not pertain to your subject. Your subject is flawed since it's core statement is false. The Supreme Court did not ban gays. The Supreme Court (as I'm sure was shared with you in high school) rules on issues related to the Constitution. What the Supreme Court upheld was the BSA's standing as a private organization and their constitutionally protected right of free association. This substantiatied the BSA's position that they have the legal right and the authority to determine their own membership rules. That is a far cry from the core statement of your study. If you talk to your college registrar you will find that not everyone gets in. Your college discriminates. They look at what the colleges goals are and they look at students that apply for entry and they select who will get in and who will not based on the goals of the college. The BSA does the same thing. The volunteer National Executive Board of the BSA has for decades, believed that an individual who is an avowed atheist or homosexual cannot fully develop in character according to the ideals and purpose of the BSA program. Only recently has this become a political tool being used by a some to gain social acceptance, by challenging the traditional family morals that have long been represented by the name and image of the Boy Scouts of America. Unlike the activists in the atheist and homosexual communities who have tried and continue to try to shut down the scouting program, the BSA has never called for any action against those who disagree with their ideals. What the BSA has said is "this is who we are, you have the freedom to choose which set of values you want to follow" But you cannot follow both. The BSA cannot agree to both sides of the same coin. You cannot believe as the BSA does that belief in God is a vital part of strong character and also believe that it's ok to be atheist. So the BSA says, look at both stands and choose who you want to be. If you agree and share the same values of the BSA then join us. If you do not like our values then don't join us. It really is that simple.

The crossover is not an award or recognition. it is a transition, a welcoming to Boy Scouts. How do you welcome someone to your home if they don't come to your home? How do you welcome a cub to Boy scouts if they don't join a troop?

If your gay are u denied membership?? No. If you are an avowed homosexual you cannot hold membership. The BSA will not ask if you are homosexual, or seek out homosexuals. So can you be in scouting if homosexual? Yes, as long as you do not express that decision. If you do not believe in God are u denied mempership?? Yes. If you are an avowed atheist you cannot hold membership. The Bsa will allow you to question the role of God in your life. The BSA does not require you to understand the power or mysteries of God. The BSA does not care what religion you are, how you worship or what you call God. But the BSA maintains that with a belief in God you cannot fully develop your character. And in both cases if you are a member, are you asked to leave/kicked out? No, You are told to leave, not asked. But this only happens after you are given the opportunity to decide if you want to follow the rules and responsibilities membership in the BSA or not. You cannot choose to be atheist, and choose to stay in Scouting. BUT none of these questions are related to your original premise. nor is your original question accurate. The Supreme Court did not decision did not ban gays. It was not even addressing banning gays. If you are going into marketing perhaps you should talk to an instructor about methodology. Taking unsubstantiated material from a website is hardly an accurate method. Nor is reading opinions from blogs. I am curious why you came up with this topic. If you are serious about being a scouting professional I would hope that you would have known and accepted the tenets of the organization by this time? No?