Bob White

OOOPS! If in fact you sat through BALOO you missed the first thing they talked about. DENS CANNOT GO CAMPING. Having a BALOO trained Pack leader allows a PACK to go FAMILY CAMPING, not a Den. The only Den that can go camping is a Webelos Den and only after the leader has attended Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. So lucky for you the den members have backed out. you have two years to figure out why before you can try den camping correctly.

Be careful assuming that the way you have often seen something, and the way you have always done something, is the same as the correct way. There is a page in the Wood Badge syllabus (I don't know if it is in the latest one) thatt explains how and when to wear the recognition. It says the beads and thong "hangg freely in front without a twist" and if you look at Baden-Powell's picture or Bill Hillcourts, you will see that that is how they were it.

I would have a Scoutmaster conference with each scout. Ask them some pointed questions. What is the purpose of scouting? What is the purpose of a patrol? What are the responsibilities of being part of a team? What is the biggest problem their patrol is having. What would manke scouting better for them? Listen to each personas anwer. then correct them when they are wrong and agree with them when they are right. Then say There is a boy in your patrol wh....(and describe the boy to himself in detail) why do you think he behaves this way? How do you think we should handle it? So if the boy can come face to face with himself and find his own solution. When all else fails tell the scout that according to the rules you are required to follow by the BSA if a scout is continually disruptive you must have him, and his parents, meet with the troop committee to determine what to do with the scout. "When would be a good time to have them come in?" As a precaution remind your son and his assistance of the skills of leadership that can be used to control incorrect behavior before it gets out of hand.

If you would scroll up the thread You will see where I posted to why the Federal Charter was written. I am a Doric Greek, our character is to be honest and straightforward. I do not beat around the bush. Wheeler here is something you might find hard to swallow. YOU ARE WRONG! And I dont care if you are from Puff Bluff, Arkansas.You are still WRONG! (My apologies to any Puff Bluffians reading this post.) There were three scouting programs with Federal Charters in 1910. Two of them owned by publishers looking to capitalize on Baden-Powells #1 selling book in Europe, Scouting for Boys. One was W.D. Boyce from Chicago, the other William Randolph Hearst who founded the American Boy scouts (ABS). Boyce sued Hearst and the case was finally decided in 1916 in favor of Boyce who had Baden-Powells support. Hearst by this time had withdrawn his support of the ABS (due to poor book sales) and congress re-wrote the Charter. In effect the charter gives the BSA a federally approved monopoly on the term Boy Scout, as well as total control of the images and advancement program of the BSA, and at the same time nullifying the charters of the other two scouting organizations. So the Charter establishes legal ownership and proprietary rights. The Congressional Charter is not the tool that establishes aims, methods, and mission. The Mission of the BSA is not to make men out of boys, even if you say it is. The mission when last I checked is established by the executive committee of the BSA and not by decree of the Doric Greeks? The BSA says its mission is to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. So Wheeler, you might know Plato, and you might know Socrates, but when it comes to the Boy Scouts of America..You Dont Know Jack. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sticks and stones Wheeler. I am shocked that a man of your self-importance would stoop to name calling. That does not seem very Socratic to me. Let's get back to the topic which you are constantly evading. Why a Congressional Charter. Why was its purpose? Who asked congress to do it? Why did congress agree? If the charter and its content are a key role in your discourse then you should know why the charter exists. So far you have not explained that. You present yourself as someone with incontrovertible knowledge of the BSA and its origins. This should be a cake walk for you. Lets try something new in your next post. No quotes from dead thinkers. No outdated manual excerpts. No name calling, just simply and calmly explain the purpose of the BSA congressional charter. Stop filibustering and communicate.

I would be honest. Tell the audience how even to you are new to scouting you understand the importance of this occasion and the of the Eagle Award. Tell them how you feel about being in a program that develops scouts to this degree and that you hope tonight has benn as meaningfull to the Eagle scout and his family as it has been for you to be able to be a part of it. Relax, you will be fine.

If twisting a piece of leather is a source of pride for you, then more power to you. Eamonn asked for the correct way.

Hi Eamonn, I really like how you scout. I think this is a great idea. I will however suggest what might be causing the problem with your membership chair. No one volunteers to fail. everyone wants to to a good job and get the rewards of doing so, The warm fuzzty feeling , the pat on the back etc. But not everyone knows how to be successful. We have talked about the two jobs of leadership is to get the job done (production)and keep the group together (morale). The leader has a responsibility to make sure the team mmember has the tools and resources to succeed. Has this person been trained in their job? Were they given a resouce list of places that can be contacted for hosting events, or of people who have been helpful in the past in putting them on. Just that little bit of help can make a big difference. Often that first step in starting a project is the hardest. If you or the DE would assist them taking that first step they will take the next ones on their own. IMHO Bob

Good Luck Eamonn, I think you will find this to be effective and give you more flexibility scheduling trainers. you will no longer have to worry about who can do what. If you have a session to present you have your entire training pool to draw from. Take a close look at the folks who want to train. if it is because they have good communication skills and want to share the real program then keep them training. If it's because (and this is the case sometimes, just ask Mark) they want to tell leaders how to do it their way and they like having people who have to listen to them, either thank them for their help and let them have the freedom to try other aspects of scouting, or pair them with better trainers and try to develop their skills. Once again Good Luck and let me know how it works. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is not against the uniform regulations to do so and is a common sight at our dinners. The neckerchief is worn under an open collar or on top of a rolled in collar. The thong of the beads goes under the neckerchief and the beads hang freely in front of the neckerchief (Some give the beads a twist before they pull the ends of the neckerchief through. This is incorrect, the beads should hang freely and not be twisted around the neckerchief). The Siver Beaver ribbon goes on top of the kneckerchief. If you do not wear the neckerchief then the beads go under the open collar and the ribbon goes on top of the collar. Hope this is as clear as mud. Bob

Sit here Grasshopper and listen. You have told me what the flower looks like but what about its roots? You must dig deeper in order to see them. The flower is put there by the plant to show everyone it's beauty, but it is from the roots that the plant gets its life. What are the roots of the charter young Grasshopper? Why was it needed. What purpose did it serve when the flower was planted? What happened to the other scouting program? Yes Grasshopper...there was another. See what you miss when you allow yourself to only gaze at the flower. Go back to your cell little one, assume the lotus position and meditate on the roots, see if you can find the the truth. OHHHMMMMMMMMMMM.....OHHHMMMMMMMMM

Better than that, we have the training syllabus and the resources of the program to draw from. Remember we are trying to communicate two very important things in the training curriculuum. One is the information that is in the course syllabus and two that the answers to most program questions can be found in the scouting resources, here is what they look like. If a program or unit administrative question cannot be answered by the resources available at the course then the trainer will go back and find the answer and call the leader who needed it. Basic training should not be about the trainer sharing what they know or believe. It should be about giving all leaders the same sturdy, consistant foundation for them to build their knowledge on. Just like the boys, these leaders do not need to know, after only one or two training sessions, everything the trainer knows. They need to know what is in the course syllabus so that they can get started. Too much information at this stage will overwhelm the trainee not prepare them better.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Excuse me sir, can I get you some cheese to go with that whine? So Wheeler, are you saying that since Plato and Socrates have nothing to tell you about the history of scouting that leads up to the Charter and charter organization concept, that you have no intention to learn about it? Just how old does information have to be for you to accept it as a truth? Whose vision of the original BSA do you want? Boyce's, Seton's, Beard's, West's? They were all different. This was not a group that got along together or had a similar philosophy. Why a Congressional Charter Wheeler? Why was it needed? Who made it happen and why? What did it establish?

Hi OGE, I too value your input. What is being overlooked here is that this is a huge organization, and the expectation that every volunteer should be communicated with about everything being considered by the national council, in every committee or division, is simply not feasible. I am willing to bet that most posters, unless they are executives, are not kept abreast with everything being done, considered, or tested by company they work for. Their job is to do their job. I'm sure that like me you are active in your church. But do you know what is happening in every committee, and every change being considered by your pastor let alone by the executive branch of the church in the future? I'm not. I do not feel I need to be. There are several hundred if not thousands of volunteers involved on a daily basis on national committees that shape scouting. Just because a volunteer you know is not on one of those committees doesn't mean the committees don't exist. We don't need to know everything going on at national, that's not our job. Whether the uniform changes next week or next year does not alter the quality of the troop or pack meeting, or our responsibility to deliver the program. That's our task, not picking pant material. Do you see what I'm saying. Sure we can all have input. That's not my point. You say,"I believe you when you say national seeks input on such topics as these, but I have never heard of any such opportunity. That's my point. If you have suggestions for the national program all you have to do is call your scout office and ask for the phone number of the national office. They have some very friendly receptionists. You simply tell them the topic you are interested in and ask for the name of the person you need to contact. Address a letter to their attention and share your ideas. But don't expect them to ask 6 million people for input on everything they are working on. That is simply not a reasonable way to manage a project. The thought that anyone at nation is purposely trying to screw things up is unfounded and incorrect. I do not fault Proud Eagle for his methodology and I hope he follows through on his plan and shares his results with the national office. But don't assume nothing is being done just because you haven't heard about it yet. And please do not judge everyone else based on the problems of your local committees to do a task. I have seen volunteers screw up a pack meeting for 12 cubs, and national council put on a great jamboree for 50,000 people. So you will not convince me that they are clueless.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm not sure what part of Eamonn's or my posts lead you down that path FB. What you described sounds more like commissioning (or what commissioning should be). We are talking about rather than having a Boy Scout Training team or a Cub Scout Training Team, that you have a District Training Team. One in which its members are selected by their ability to follow and communicate any of the basic training continuum's syllabi. In short gathering and developing people who know how to train, rather than people who want to train. It is the same as selecting good leaders. You do not stand up and say "we need somebody to do this job". Instead you identify the skills needed for the job, identify people with those skills and then go to them individually with a personal invitation to become involved.

Why is there the assumption that the BSA does not already use these methods or similar ones to redesign and evaluate the uniform elements for the future. I know for a fact that the BSA recently engaged in a two year study with the military to test materials for zip off cargo pants. The tests failed by the way, and the idea was reject for the time being by both the BSA and the military. Proud Eagle raises good points by why in the world think that nobody is doing it already? You just don't change the uniforming for millions of people overnight(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Note to self: Remember to sign-in BEFORE you open a thread so that the "squelch poster" function is engaged. Wheeler, Wheeler, Wheeler I'm begging you buddy, get some training. Spend some time in the program as an adult. Doesn't Plato, or Socrates, or Aristotle, or any of the gang you run with have anything to say about the value of experience? Before you talk about what the Congressional Charter is or isn't you need some historical perspective. Why was the charter even needed? Why was congressed asked to recognize the scouting movement at all? Who benefited and how. Ask your philosopher pals and see if they know. Then, if you are ever in the area and want to actually have some idea about the program you are pontificating on call me. I have some trainers who can teach you a lot more about scouting than Plato can. Excuse me now while I go sign-in.

Not gold shoulder loops, I think you mean a gold braid and epaulet. gold shoulder loops are Regiona an national volunteers and professionals.

That would depend on the boys and the leadership they are given. If their site is such a problem why has the SM not adrressed it? The SPL and ASPLS need to be and are instructed in the BSA program to be separate from patrols. You cannot be the leader and the lead at the same time. So they have to be somewhere. The other troop offices can remain in their patrol since they are support staff not leadership staff. The Troop guides should be with their assigned New Scout patrols. Why not have the SPL, ASPLS, and JASMS w2ork together as a patrol at campouts? This would enhance their opportunities to paln, evaluate and carry out their responsibilities as a team.

According to the Scoutmaster Handbook, The Boy Scout Handbook, the Patrol Leader Handbook, and the senior Patrol Leader Handbook, there are two elected positions in the Patrol Method of scouting. The Patrol Leader and The Senior Patrol Leader. All other positions in the Patrol are by the selection of the Patrol Leader. All Other troop offices are by the selection of the Senior patrol Leader with guidance of the Scoutmaster. only for the Junior Assistant Scoutmaster does the BSA program resources say "with the guidance and approval of the Scoutmaster". Congress doesn't assign the role of president to someone, the troop leadership should not be assigning Senior Patrol Leader. Electing specific youth officers is part of the Patrol Method, Youth Leadership Method, and Citizenship Development Aim of the Scouting program.

DoubleH is not BSA property. It is an area where we partner with US Forestry and Conservation services to do a trek program based on Elk studies.

Mark, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Troop Committee Challenge. It is really an excellent course when done correctly. One problem I have is when it it run as a district or council course. TTC is designed to be done with the committee of a troop together, not mixed with other troop committees. What is the point in role playing the part of the advancement chair if you are the outdoor coordinator? Each person is to play their specific role in the troop in order to gain a better understanding of your own job responsibility. for that reason we go to each troop at their convenience with the training. It should have been pointed out (it's in the syllabus) that the committee members are parallels of youth officers and should make opportunities to include them in the work to help guide and develop them. Eamonn, Consider a different approach. having a District trainig team that teaches ALL program courses. Rather than have a cub training coordinator have a training coordinator with team members that are developed to present a variety of traing courses. The thought is to select people who can follow the syllabus and present the informationm in a clear, exciting, interesting style. The focus becomes the trainers ability to communicate and motivate, rather than just on their individual experience as a leader. We like it here because it is helping to break down the barriers between the program levels. Its all one Scouting program, just different program stages for different ages.

I saw a current (latest edition) Webelos Handbook this last weekend at a training conferrence. The Arrow of Light requirements neither requires the scout to register, or to even obtain an application form. They must however attend a troop meeting, and have a conference with the Scoutmaster.

That has been part of the new training continuum since its release two summers ago. All basic leader training courses are designed to be delivered as large group instruction, small group instruction, mentor to trainee, or as a self-study course with follow-up by a qualifed trainer.

According to the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, the merit badge requirements can only be passed by an approved, registered, counselor. The Scoutmaster is incorrect.(This message has been edited by Bob White)