Bob White

I would let them do both. No harm no foul.

What you seem determined not to accept is that the the responsibility for the uniform belongs to the person wearing it and no one else. When Boys' Life or Scouting Magazine does an article they don't edit out people in incorrect uniforms, or make them move patches. They expect the individual to dress correctly. This is a local council brochure for pete's sake. You don't really believe that a swarm of marketing experts is checking every detail of each photo do you? There are no uniform police. There are people who wear the uniform conscientously and people who don't. It's a matter of personal choice. You would hope leaders would not purposely do the wrong thing. I still don't know if she is wearing it incorrectly, not having seen the badge.

Greeneagle5, If I were the Committee chair I would tell the Scoutmaster, in a very serious tone, that he must immediately adapt a positive, non-threatening, way of speaking with scouts and others or he will be removed from the Scoutmaster position. He needs to make a choice. Does he want to lead a scouting program or does he want to say stupid things to other peoples children. Do not allow him to do both.

VentureScoutNY Do you understand that I'm not talking about uniforming at all? I wanted to make sure you saw that you were saying 'this rule is important, and the scouts need to follow it because its important...but the adults don't have to." And as you have said and I agree...Yes they should also follow that rule. Where we disagree is that you think it can be justified to the scouts. My point is that not only can't it be, but it shouln't be. A rule is a rule and it either stands for everyone or or it doesn't. I have no concerns about what you teach the scouts about uniforming, but what are they learning about their responsibilities as adults? Food for thought, I hope.

My question wasn't about untucked shirts, jeans, or jackets covered with patches. I simply saw two very conflicting comments in one post. Now that you have explained it brings up two other questions. Do you think it can be confusing to tell scouts they can't break rules but some adults can "earn" the right to do so? Do you think that the veterans, and the retired police officers, would follow the rules if someone explained that to let them ignore the rules sets the wrong example for the scouts? Is it that big a deal? I don't know. You said "Uniformity when wearing the Neckerchief is important" so you decide.

Hi Eamonn, I think you raise a good point. I also think the program allows for what you say, but through use of a different method. All of scouting is a progressive flow. everything happens at the best time for the scout based on his growth. I think you would agree that a cubscout joiuns for fun and friends and perhaps hopes of becoming a Boy Scout. Boy Scouts join for the adventure of scouting and perhaps to achieve the goal of Eagle. Neither is immediately ready to be jolted in to saying "hey, it's all a front, we are actually here to make something of you!" But the program allows for personal growth, heart to heart talks between the scout and the scoutmaster where slowly over the course of years we reveal the real treasure that scouting offers a boy. We share a path to adulthood where the scout gains the tools and the character he needs to make a difference in his life as well as in the lives of others. So rather than post the mission on the wall, whisper into their ears by making real use of scoutmaster conferences and board of reviews so that rather than focus on his ability to tie knots we focus on his ability to use the elements of the oath and law in his everyday life. Hope this helps to calm your demons, Bob White

I have finally found something to agree with Wheeler on. "I think FOG just is baiting with this thread." I can not answer this definitively since I choose not to see his posts, but if it turned out to be true I would not be surprised. "The Boy Scouts are based on a system that Victorian England was well acquainted with and the modern American people and culture are totally ignorant of." OK this part is rubbish, but hey nobody's perfect. "If you don't understand Victorian culture and WHERE IT CAME FROM, there is no understanding of the Boy Scouts." Well OK this part is really old smelly rubbish. The structure of the BSA, particularly in its original program of troop Boy Scouting, is based on a combination of the early military structure of the US Cavalry and features of the US governmental system. NOT victorian culture. I agree that for some there is no understanding of the BSA. Wheeler, you are proving yourself to be one of those. I was persuaded to take you off of squelch and give you a chance to prove your wvalue to the forum. I still see none, so you are going back into the squelch zone.

The answer is WHY NOT? Its not only badges and pinewood derby cars. Its also trips to a rodeo, a semi-pro hockey game, a semi-pro baseball game where they stayed overnight on the field and watched sports movies on the giant screen, and a college basketball game. Its all their handbooks and neckerchiefs when they graduate to the next rank. It was a great Blue and Gold catered dinner with a ventriloquist for entertainment and door prizes for every cub. It is a huge discount for any scouts going to day camp. Its a full program library for every den leader, and funds for den projects and supplies. The packs financial plan is to spend all but $1200 this year on the scouts who earned the money and then start again fresh in the fall with a new Popcorn drive.

As far as a national policy regarding traveling in uniform....there is none. I have always weighed the travel time and destination activity to determine whether or not to travel in uniform. If we are headed for a 90 minute non stop drive to a campsite, I don't see the value in being in uniform, But if we are going a longer distance and making rest stops then I think being in uniform when we exit the vehicles is appropriate. Being in uniform spreads scoutings image, affects the boys' behaviors, makes them easier to find in a crowd, and promotes good will and good memories from those who see them.

Don't fool yourself into believing that council administrative support staffs, editors, photographers, or graphic artists, have the slightest idea about patch placement on a uniform. That responsibility lies soley on the person wearing the uniform. If you are asked to "appear in a photo, please wear a full and complete ubiform", it is up to you alone to present yourself correctly. No photography or editor is going to hold up production to research your attire. If the patch is in the incorrect place then that is the young lady's error.

It is likely she is a member of the council executive board. Like the national council, most local councils have youth representatives on the executive board. The patch is probably in as accurate a position as she is able to do in her field uniform. The patch is likely designed for wear on a blazer pocket or the BSA dress uniform. "I think the only answer to the second question is, they made a mistake." I do not understand who you are suggesting "they" are or what role "they" played in sewing patches onto other peoples uniforms?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

from the same post "Uniformity when wearing the Neckerchief is important. Everyone in the Troop should wear them the same way." AND "We wear it under the shirt Collar, a few of the old rocking chair patrol (adults) wear them over their collar." It just sorta caught my eye. If uniformity is so important, why do some adult leaders in the troop not follow the rule and help support the decision. And, if they can be different are the scouts allowed to ignore things and be given a pass as well? Just curious. BW

I look in my Scout handbook and all I see are people of this era. I just looked through my Bible and I can't believe it! There is not one illustration of a knight, or a pioneer, or frontiersman. All it has are illustrations of the people who were common to that era. What the heck is going on here? Meow!

Why not invite someone from local law enforcment to put on a program at your troop meeting?

We just had a pack in a town of 1,900 sell $23,000 in BSA Popcorn. $500$ They banked just shy of $8,000. Sorry, but if you can't make money selling Scout popcorn then you just aren't doing it right. Sure there are other projects you can do but I haven't found anything in nearly 30 years that is as easy, and makes as much money, as scout popcorn.

If Wheelers point is that the Handbook has changed over 50 years then I agree with that. If Wheeler is suggesting that the editors of the handbook reference every word that appears or every time that word appears then I disagree. Since Wheeler did not do a reverse comparison as to how many times a specific word appears more often in 1998 than in 1948 no real comparative analysis can be made. Since Wheeler has only read the index, and not the actual handbook, he is in no position to make any comparison at all between the two. The Abbot would be very disappointed in his sloppy analytical form. He rings a bell that has no clapper.

If a parent is a committee member, can they be a member on the BOR, for their son? Not if you want to proceed according to the advancement policies.

Anarchist has it backwards. Tenderfoot through Life rank board of reviews are done by the troop committee. No less than three, no more than six committee members participate. This information is in the The Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, The Troop Committee Guidebook, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual, Scoutmaster/Asst.SM training, and Troop Committee Challenge training. Eagle Boards may include others beyond the troop committee members. How can a Scoutmaster, Committee chair, Advancement chair, or any trained troop leader not be aware of this? As far as who can be in the BOR that too is shared. See page 29 of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual, in BOLD letters. Unit leaders, assistant unit leaders, relatives, or guardians may not serve as members of a scout's board of review.

My personal experience is that scouting is good experience but not the only experience in making for a good DE and certainly not the best experience. I have worked with good DE's who are Eagle Scouts, and good DE's who were never Boy Scouts. Bad DE's who are Eagle Scouts, and bad DE's that were never scouts. I know enough about the job of being a DE to know that it has nothing to to with the the experiences of being a unit leader and all about having the skills of leadership. I have met some great scout leaders who would be driven crazy trying to do the work they expect of DEs. The job of professional scouting has only a slight resemblance to the job of unit leadership. I would wish neither on the other.

To understand why dens do not camp and the purpose of BALOO training two things need to happen 1) you need to have an understanding of the methods of scouting, and two you need trainers who follow the various training syllibi and share the information that is supposed to be included in the courses. It is not feasible to explain the value of the entire 8 hour BALOO course in a forum post. Nor is it possible, in the length of a post, to teach or persuade anyone who either doesn't know or doesn't accept the methods of scouting to do so. But lets start here. From the BALOO syllabus. "The target particiapnat is a new Cub Scout leader who has minimal camping experience but wants to plan and carry out an entry-level outdoor experience for the pack. Successful completeion of this training will result in increased confidence and a willingness to plan a pack campout. The goal of the pack camping acrtivity is to provide a successful pack camp outing that is: >Fun >Based on the purposes of the Cub Scouting. >Successful in whetting the appetite of the Cub Scout, his parents, and the leaders to want more of the outdoors." ASLO from the syllabus: BSA Progressive Camping Program "We introduce Cub Scouts to the outdoors through dan and pack activities and Wolf and Bear requirements. The Boys learn proper methods and safety procedures for hikes, cookouts, and conservation projects. they enjoy family camping, day camping, residdent camping and now, with a parent or other adult, Pack overnighters. Webelos take the second step in outdoor adventure by taking part in more advanced overnight campouts with a parent or responsible adult........ Boy Scouts develop and polish their skills of long term camping. they use the basics learned as cub scouts and Webelos to add more complex skills, learn self reliance and develop a deper sense of responsibility....... Each step in the ever-increasing challenge of the outdoor program is a foundation to the next heigher step. We should guard against using outdoor experiences that will take away from a boy's later experience in scouting. We want to whet his appetite for Boy Scouting and beyond- not give him the whole meal too early, before he is ready." There is more, but you need to be reading the resources of Cub Scouting to learn it, not this or any other forum. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

We use a stock neckerchief that is given the scouts when they reach First Class. It is worn for COHs and special events. The scouts choose to wear it under an open collar. Other times the scouts can wear any neckerchief of their choice, or none. They may wear any slide they wish with any neckerchief. Bob

If by getting BALOO trained I am the Pack's designated campout organizer. You are the person certified to see that the pack follows all the health, safety and program rules of Pack Family Camping. Why would I not be qualified to organize a Den campout? Because Den camping by Tigers, Wolves and Bears, is prohibited by the safety Policies of yje BSA , no exceptions. If I am trained for 30-40 boys and families how can national say you are not trained for a 10 boy den? Because as the BALOO certified leader you are there to provide program for the entire pack so that one den does not get all the advantages of camping, and to have more than just a lad and dad situation. Family Camp is meant to be for the entire family at this age. My regional council has acknowledged this and has granted us a tour permit. Not if the camp is within 500 miles they didnt. Your local council approved the outing because it was signed by the Cubmaster and had a BALOO trained leader. They assumed that since you were BALOO trained you knew it had to be a pack event since Den camping for Wolves is forbidden. They made a mistake based on your mistake. Fortunately the consequences of those errors will never have to be dealt with. The Regional office only approves National Tour permits not local ones. My recommendation is for you to review the BALOO info, ask your training chair to loan you a course syllabus. Review all the program, health, and safety, regulations. Plan a pack wide family Camp. The review the Guide to safe scouting manual on elements relating to Cub Camping and the specific activities you want to do. Set a one night overnighter up for the entire pack and their families. Im sure you and the den will have a great time. More importantly it will be a fun, safe, legitimate scout outing. Bob White

Had Congressman Frank not received the same letter as every member in congress his indignation would probably be the same. I would imagine a response from the BSA to the Congressman to be something along the lines of As a member of Congress we are sure that you appreciate the fact that your right to make your choices is no greater than the rights afforded the BSA to make our choices. Although we may not agree with each others choices, I would hope that the right to make them will be respected. Wouldn't it be funny if the Honorable Mr. Frank believed his rights superceeded everyone elses. By the way Acco's summation of the Mr. Franks' letter is in error. "Frank noted that the Boy Scouts have characterized gay men as unfit to associate with" no he did not, and that is not an accurate representation of the BSA position. Frank wrote " I was under the impression that you considered people like myself to be unworthy of association with the Boy Scouts. Which is different then acco's statement, but this too is a misrepresentation of the BSA position. The BSA has stated that leadership and membership by "avowed homosexuals" is inconsistent with the goals of scouting. I guess I just have a different sense of humor.

from The Guide to Safe Scouting "The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities: Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America." note from Bob White Keep in mind that information appearing in bold type represents BSA Policy and can not be altered.

Quick nurse this man needs to be sedated stat. Well wheeler now you have done it. Not only do you have no idea what you are talking about, now I have no idea what you are talking about. We have now seen judges changing the law because?????? they decided which organization had the rights to Baden-Powell's term Boy Scouts? The National Executive Committee are LIBERALS? What do you think this is, auditions for comedy night? Face it Wheeler you had no idea about any of that. How can you debate the charter when you had no idea of its purpose. It's good you can quote others, cause as a thinker you got nothin'.