Bob White

IN the first case you offer, the BSa does not own the product name and so has no concern in how you use it, although the owner of the product may. What the BSa controls is the name and images of the BSA and they are telling you that you cannot use the name or image of the BSA when selling a commercial product. Even if you do not mention the product name during the sale, at the point of delivery deliver you have made the BSA an endorser of the product. In your second scenario, the Charter Organization can do whatever they want with the money they raise, but they cannot associate the name or images of the BSA without the permission of the BSA.

You CANNOT sell any product or service using the name, images, or referencing the BSA without the permission of yourlocal council Scout Executive. You have no legal grounds to represent the BSA when raising funds unless you do so with the permission of the BSA. No individual can raise funds using the scouting name or images. You must do so as a unit, district or council entity. Think of the abuses that would be possible if every one of our nearly 6-million members could run around doing their own personal fundraiser using the name of the BSA. If your son wants to raise funds using the scouting name or symbols he needs permission. If he wants to work for income and use that income for whatever he wants including jamboree he is free to do so.

Please allow me to repost as I was racing to get out the door for church. Proud Eagle, You are overlooking an important difference. the BSA does not say that you cannot wear the uniform for product sales. It says, you cannot wear the uniform or use the name or images of scouting for a BRAND NAME product or service. You can wear the uniorm to sell pancake breakfast tickets but not Pillsbury Pancake Breakfast tickets. You can sell Krispee Kreme donuts but not in uniform, or in any apparel that connects you with scouting, nor can you mention scouting in advertising, when selling or when delivering name brand products. You can wear your uniform (activity uniform would probably be better than the field uniform) when doing a carwash but not if the carwash has a commercial product or business name attached to it. You cannot sign a contract on behalf of the troop or scouting either. Bob White

For scouting i carry the traditional Boy Scout pocket knife (big surprise). For everyday use I carry a Schrade Old Timer or Old Timer Junior.

The knot you speak of has several other names including a lanyard knot and the inverted turks head. It has been used in scouting for decades to retie the Wood Badge lanyard so that it has an apparent turks head knot in it. You can see a diagram on how to tie it here. http://whatknot.tripod.com/knots/Fship.htm

I hold a unit and a district position. I am primary registered in my district position. The choice is yours to make and will effect which mailings and version of Scouting Magazine you get. I have a field uniform shirt for each of the two positions. There are some regulations on multiple registrations. For instance; a cub leader cannot be registered in two positions in the same pack (there is an exception for the COR), a unit leader cannot be a Unit Commissioner, the Scoutmaster cannot be the Committee Chair etc. Many district and council volunteers are multi-registered. They have an interest in the individual unit and in the welfare of the scouting community as a whole. It should be noted that many professionals are also unit volunteers. The fewer positions you hold the better. Too many positions leads to other problems such as scheduling conflicts, conflicts of interests, and burn-out.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The decision to keep the recipients identity a secret is a local one. No district is required to do it. It's treated by some a s local version of the Oscars. That's unfortunate. As Eamonn points out, releasing the names in advance will normally increase attendance at the event. perhaps if you were to suggest to the District committee the advantages of releasing the names in advance they would consider it for next year if not this year.

Proud Eagle You are overlooking an important difference. the BSA does nopt say that you canot wear the uniform for product sales. It says you cannot wear the uniform or use the name or images of scouting for a BRAND NAME product or service. You can wear the uniorm to sell Pancake breakfast tickets but not Pillsbury Pancake Brakfast

rlculver415 You need to read the rules listed on you unit fundraising application. It extends far beyond not wearing the uniform to include not using the name or emblems of the scouting movement when advertising, selling or delivering the product. As long as your shirt does not mention scouting or display the emblems of scouting, and no one mentions scouting you are OK. But you do not have the authority to sugeest that the BSA is lending endorsement to a commercial product unless explicit permission is granted by the BSA. The rules on the money earning application are very clear on this.

I will be happy to do so, but I will need you to allow me some time as I have lent both of those resources to one of the training team members as he prepares for a Troop Committee Challenge course. I will respond ASAP. In the meantime please sight the source that lead so many of you to believe that the scout is responsible for scheduling his own SM conference and BOR. Thanks, Bob White

Ed Here is the problem, nobody but you and Fog enjoy these exchanges. What satisfaction this gives you is beyond me. Now, whether you meant to or not, you have fabricated a falsehood yet again. Very few people will equate lack or posting with agreeing. Many of us do not respond to posts whose content, or author, are of little or no interest. However I did respond, just not in a post addressed to FOG. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=47401&p=4#id_47739 So you still cannot, and will not, post a link where I said these units were fictional because I never said it or implied it. You and FOG fabricated it, and then presented it as truth. If this is a thread you really want to revisit Ed then why not just start a spin off, and ask how the two troops are doing currently?

kasane, While your involvement is appreciated and important, none of the credentials you list include training in the advancement program, except for being on the training team. If you have indeed attended training or have been on the training team you should know that what you propose does not jive with the advancement methods in the Scoutmaster training course or any content of any other Scout leader training. I think if you would take a few moments to read the Advancement Committee policies and procedures manual you would understand what I mean. Being a scoutmaster's spouse is not being a scoutmaster or having the training that a Scoutmaster should have. A new troop less than a year old should be concentrating on attaining First Class skills, they have lots of time, and lots to do, before they even need to introduce merit badges. If you read the brochure for Merit Badge Counseling Orientation, you will see that the conversation you suggest having with "anyone" is supposed to happen with the SM. There are other discoveries in store for you regarding the responses you posted. And the difference between "telling" a counselor that he "has to" counsel anyone, and a counselor who volunteered to work at the jamboree midway and help anyone, is the word "volunteered".

At the insistance of a friend I have unsquelched FOG and Ed in this thread. As was related to me these to posters are, shall I say, Truth Challenged. FOG, you did not post first on this thread, Ed did. ED, as a reminder I said the characteristics of the two troops were common, you said they were hypothetical, not me. For anyone who wishes to verify that here is the link. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=47401 I welcome anyone to find anywhere in the thread where I said the troops were not real. It is my personal choice to squelch these two posters. I am not the only one to do so. The reason I do it is obvious to most of you. I return now to resquelch the two of them. I invite, even encourage, them to do the same to me. Bob White

Kasane, While you present you plan very well you need to be aware that much of what you have written is in direct opposition to the methods, procedures, and policies of the BSA program. You might take time to review the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, as well as the Scout Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook. Just as a few areas you will want to review; Adults determining what merit badges a scout or scouts earn, Adults determining trop program, Scouts going to the Advancement chair when beginning merit badges, counselors being mandated as to who they must counsel, the use of merit badges in the troop meeting program.

Mark, I never thought you ever baited me. I was refering to the originator of the thread. Bob

These are areas where the adults are supposed to be showing interest in the needs and growth of the scout. We do expect and require the scouts to show the ability to arrange meetings, and sometimes we expect the same behaviour of the adult leaders. Seeing that a scout has his reviews in the form of the SM conference and the BOR are tasks the BSA program assigns to the adult leaders not to the scout.

"Questioning is a form of an indirect statement, not conversation." What makes you think that Fuzzy? The Merriam-Webster dictionary does not agree. It offers this definition. 1 a (1) : an interrogative expression often used to test knowledge (2) : an interrogative sentence or clause b : a subject or aspect in dispute or open for discussion : ISSUE; broadly : PROBLEM, MATTER c (1) : a subject or point of debate or a proposition to be voted on in a meeting (2) : the bringing of such to a vote d : the specific point at issue 2 a : an act or instance of asking : I think the areas I have bolded are examples of how many posters have used questions on this board. To bring in a posters name in a thread he has not participated in in order to draw them in is quite different. Again the dictionary is quite clear. 1 a : to persecute or exasperate with unjust, malicious, or persistent attacks b : TEASE 2 a : to harass (as a chained animal) with dogs usually for sport b : to attack by biting and tearing 3 a : to furnish with bait b : ENTICE, LURE 4 : to give food and drink to (an animal) especially on the road intransitive senses, archaic : to stop for food and rest when traveling What do you think was the intent of this thread?

It would seem that both of the units and their leaders misunderstand the pupose and process of merit badges. Merit badges are designed for individual selection and pursuit by the scout. The whole conversation about troop merit badge sessions goes against the spirit, policies and procedures of the merit badge advancement program. Step 1) The scout (singular) chooses a merit badge Step 2) The scout meets with the SM to obtain a blue card and to insure that he has the name and contact information for a registered and approved counselor. Step 3) The Scout contacts the MB counselor and arranges an itial meeting. Step 4) The Scout and a buddy meet with the counselor. Step 5) the scout and his buddy continue to meet with the counselor for couseling and coaching until the completion of the badge. The counselor must test each scout INDIVIDUALLY. The counselor can only test on the requirements of the badge as described in the merit badge book, nothing more and nothing less. Step 6) The MB counselor signs the blue card and retains his or her portion of the card for a minimum of two-years. Step 7) the scout returns his portion of the card for a signature from a troop leader to act as his receipt for having reported the advancement. The scout retains his portion. Step 8) The troop advancement committee retains the troop's portion of the card for the troop records, completes a council advancement report and notifies council of the advancement. There are over 100 merit badges to allow each scout to create and pursue their own advancement trail that meets their own interests. If the scout chooses to pursue a merit badge with any approved and registered counselor he may do so. The troops job is to expose the scouts to the opportunities available through the merit badge program and encourage their INDIVIDUAL pursuit. Your problem is not the parent or the scout. Bob white

Scouting is a family program and the BSA encourages family participation when the activities held are age appropriate. The BSA allows and protects through their accident insurance any program eligible youth who are looking to join the program. Barring the friends of a non-member from attending was in my estimation the correct thing to do. The family was wrong to try to make you, the troop, and the charter organization legally liable for strangers who had no intention of joining.

It seems by your posts that the scout meets the first four of his 5 requirements for the Advancement. The entire question rests on his Scoutmasters Conferences and his Boards of Review. I do not speak for the BSA only my experience as a Scoutmaster and a member of a National Appellate Board of Review. The scout is required to meet the advancement requirements in the Scout Handbook. Nowhere does the BSA make the scout responsible for setting up the SM conference, or the board of review. In fact the Scoutmaster Training, Scoutmaster Handbook, Committee Training,Committee Guidebook and the Advancement Policies Policies and Procedures manual put that responsibility squarely on the adult leaders. Unlike Merit Badges where the scout is specifically required to make the appointment to meet with the counselor, the BSA makes the Scoutmaster responsible for having a Scoutmaster Conference with a scout. These are to be informal conversations. There is nothing informal about a scout having to get the scoutmaster to schedule a set time for the conference. It is the Scoutmaster who should be involved in know the needs of each scout to take the scout aside and have the conference. The Troop Advancement Chair is likewise charged with organizing "frequent" boards of review for the scouts, even if they are not advancing. They are to be convenient for the scout. If the Board is the second Monday and the scout has another obligation every second Monday then it is the committees responsibility to find a convenient time to meet with him. They are supposed to be supporting the scouts advancement not creating another challenge for him. These boards are as much for the committee to evaluate themselves and the units scouting program. They must have the scouts input to do that. They should be as anxious, or more anxious to speak with the scout as the scout is to speak with them. They should be scheduling with the scout and not the other way around. If I was I on the appeals board I would say that the adults misunderstood their responsibility to the scout in supporting his activity and advancement in the troop. I would hold the SM and committee equally as responsible for the scout not receiving his conference and BORs in a timely fashion. Since the scout remained active, and had the needed MBs and showed good Scout Spirit throughout his tenure, I would have to vote for the scout to receive any Palms due him over the 12 month period had his Conferences and BORs been held on a timely basis. You should never find against the scout for adult errors. Only doing certain things for the scouts at specific pre-scheduled times is robot-leadership. It does not recognize the uniqueness of the individual scout or his needs. The scouts are not there to meet the needs of the adults' schedules. It is supposed to be the other way around.

Don't the hundreds of Law Enforcement, and Emergency Service posts operating through the BSA Learning for Life program (formerly Exploring) still count?

Many, many councils across the country are already doing this.

I'm not sure what has prompted this thread, or the use of my name in it, and quite honestly I am not curious enough to un-squelch the originator of the thread to find out. Going by what others have written I will say this. It is difficult to be conversational on a forum such as this, or to give quality responses to what others post, without sometimes having to ask questions. Often these questions are just to clarify, other times they are to create a train of logic to explain or enhance a point. Either way it is a style of posting which I and several others have used often. I see it as conversation not as baiting. I think it enhances the quality and the clarity of many of the threads. Baiting to me would be to introduce another posters name into a thread in a negative manner in order to try and force them to respond or react defensively. I have not done it, and will no longer respond to it, and will continue to squelch posters who continue to practice such methods. Bob White

In fact the leader basic training courses for troop leaders and pack leaders suggest things like e-bay, uniform exchanges, resale stores, and garage sales as ways to get and keep scouts in full uniform without having to buy pieces new.

This has al the makings of a really dynamic conversation. Rumor, recognition, a nice kid, an angry mom...Well let's see where this takes us. First thing I would do is take the following elements and trow them out, forget them, pretend they were never said. National granted Scout an extension (?), at least that's what I've been told. Now I hear she insists her son get both Palms that he's "earned". I wonder how many times we'll have to jump through the same hoops before this gets resolved? This is all hear-say and speculation and you need to stay away from this if you hope to make fair and reasonable decisions. OK now to the part you probably won't like. Although your description is sketchy if what I think has happened then there is a good chance that the scout should recieve an additional palm or more. Let me ask a few questions and then I will clarify. 1) How many months were there between his Eagle Board and his 18th birthday? 2) How was his attendance. 3) Was the scout expected to initiate the Scoutmaster conferences? 4) Was the scout expected to request or schedule the board of reviews. After I see this information I will be able to understand and to explain things better.