Bob White

Teach scouts self respect.

I think you have answered your own question rlculver. if the Conference is the SMs responsibility,(and I agree that it is) and it did not take place, you cannot fault the scout. You said his attendance was good so there was opportuntiy for the SM to get the job done. Not all trainers follow the syllabus sad to say. Some teach "their" method, or their "habits" rather than the program. That is why I asked if you knew of any BSA resources to support your the troops method. Had I been wrong about the methods national intends for these advancement steps then there would have been no hesitation on national's part to support the decision of the troop,right? Bob

Whoever gets the most votes wins.

"I don't call a SM conference for the purpose of advancement. That's unfortunate, since the program teaches that you should. Check out the advancement video from the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training course.

The SM and each asst have their own areas of responsibility on campouts that we just sort of gravitated to. The SM is handed a folder just before we leave with maps for the drivers, permission slips, camp reservations. He puts that in with the medical forms. One assistant is safety. My job is the New Scout Patrol program. I always carry a library in a plasic box that has a tree identification book, A mammal ID book, an insect ID book, a bird ID book. I have a BSA Field Book, A Boy Scout Handbook, song book, game book, a knot book. In another box I have a compass game, extra compasses, sharpening tools, painters, a harmonica, binoculars, pencils and paper.

Acco40, I have no idea what the relevance is in the story of the scout interrupting a meeting. rlculver never mentioned that. In fact he pointed out on a couple occasions that this was a good scout, active, good leadership skills. The mom may have been abusive, but the troop serves the boy not the mom so you need to be able to look past that. They have to show initiative? Didn't they? They did the work that the handbook required them to do. They did the skills, they earned the merit badges, they did the service hours, they did the leadership. Now it's time for the adults to do their part. Sorry, but it was not the scout who lacked the initiative.

NEVER confront an angry mob. Problems such as this are best handled one boy at a time. Praise in public, reprimand in private.

And my point was Marty that a leader should not be taking cubs on back country hikes, even at scout camps, if there is any chance at all they might get lost. BALOO would emphasize that the BALOO trained individual is not the one that leads any activity but would the one to make sure that the activities were lead according to the Sweet 16 of Safety. Certainly learning a new skill is a good think but that doesn't make it germane to Cub Scouting. BALOO doesn't teach the activity leader First-aid and isn't meant to. It teaches the need to have someone who IS first-aid trained on hand and the where to find the BSA safety regulations for a specific activity. It doesn't teach map and compass because that skill is inappropriate to cub scout pack activities. It doesn't teach tree huggy stuff like Leave No Trace because that is not the kind of camping a Pack should be doing. It does teach nature appreciation and to control littering. Keep it simple, make it fun and safe. That is all that BALOO is designed for because that is all Family camp is meant to be.

Caution! If you feel that knowledge of map and compass or GPS is needed for a Cub outdoor activity, then you are doing something WAY beyond the level of what you should be doing with Cub Scouts.

Rculver, once I get my resource books back I will give you some specific passages to support what I wrote. Until then perhaps I can shed some light on what I said by explaining some things not found in specific passages, but are attitudes that are expressed in the overall feel and flow of the scouting program. First let me warn you that to get the most out of a forum of this type you need to be good at using mental filters. There are folks responding to this thread who have a) never been trained in the BSA program b) never understood the training of the BSA program c) ignore what they did understand d) were never successful at what they did e) actuallly know, use, and practice the leadership skills of scouting. Depending on what your goals are you need to carefully filter what any of us write. If you are looking for understanding the program better there are some posters here who can do that. If what you want are posters who will substantiate what your troop does now, there are a number of posters who will do that too. I am not one of them, so depending on your goal you may want to quit reading now. The relationship of the Scoutmaster to the Scout is one of mentor, coach, counselor, and friend. It is not a boss/worker relationship. Would you tell your son that if he needs to talk about anything that you are available the second Wednesday of each month form 6PM to 7:30PM? Would you tell a friend that if they ever want to visit with you that you will be at Denny's restaurant for breakfast on the third Tuesday of each month from 6Am to 7AM be sure to schedule an appointment because you have a number of friends to talk to as well? If your minister came up to you and said, "you look like you could use someone to listen to you, I'm available from noon till 1pm on the first Saturday of each month, be sure to make an appointment", how comforting would that be to you? Don't make personal growth a scheduled meeting. The SM handbook will tell you this is an informal visit that can take place anytime, anywhere. It is a opportunity for the SM to learn more about the scout. This is for the SM not the boy. It is so the SM can understand the Scout better, so the SM can do his or her job better. It is a personal, friendly, counseling session where the spririt of scouting can be shared based on the needs and characteristics of the individual scout. Please do not turn this into a business meeting. "your next requirement to complete your advancement is to meet with your SM for a Scoutmaster Conference, he will be available the first Monday of each month for you to meet with him." BLECH! "Hi Todd, Your doing a great job as Patrol Leader, can you sit down with me for a few minutes I liked to hear how things are going with you." THAT is how a scoutmaster conference takes place. It's a casual informal conversation with a purpose. That is how we train leaders to do it. If it were the scouts responsibility we would train them how to do it, just as we do all other scout skills. The same with the BOR. We train adults how to do them because it's THEIR JOB. The BOR helps troop committees get to know the scouts they serve and to help them evaluate the effectiveness of the troop leadership and program. It also lets them see a scout develop over the years. The BOR helps the committee more than the scout. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual will tell you that it is the COMMITTEE'S job to hold frequent, and convenient BORs. This is to be a friendly, non threatening conversation. Its fine to schedule them, but my opinion is one a month in a active troop of any real size (20 scouts and up) is not enough. I have always seen it arranged that once the board is assembled the SPL or SM will go over to a scout and invite hime to meet with the board. The program is designed to review scouts who are not advancing as well as those that are. So if the board has assembeled we review advancing scouts first, and when they are done, or if there aren't any, then we select other scouts to go chat with the committee. The important thing to remember here is "who is serving who" are the scouts there for us? Or are we there for them? If they are there for us then make them cross whatever obstacles and follow whatever artificial protocol you want. But if we are there for them, then treat them as a guest, as a friend, and not as an employee or as a munchkin who must ask to see the great OZ of the troop. I hope this helps BW

Follow the Guide to Safe Scouting, Bullying and harassing between scouts is FORBIDDEN by the BSA. Document the past incidences. Meet with the committee chair and explain that the BSA requires that the scout and his parents meet with the troop committee to discuss the problems. Together with input from the parents the committee is to develop a behavior plan to deal with the scout. If needed the committee can remove the boy's membership from scouting. Make sure that you do not treat this scouts misbehavior any differently than any other scout. You must be consistent. I would do the SM conference and have a heart to heart with the boy. Bring up the specific instance and ask him to explain how they are Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful, Clean and Reverent. Ask him if he understands why these behaviors are wrong. It is doubtful that he will be able to defend his actions. Explain then that it has been decided that not only will he not be able to meet the qualifications of Scout Spirit in order to advance at this time but that his parents are being contacted by the troop committee and they will be asking the parents input to determine what punishments may be given the scout and under what conditions he might be allowed to continue in scouting.

I'm with OGE, If I were the SM I would counsel the SPL to have the scouts who will be going to camp elect an SPL for the week of camp . If I were the SPL I would discuss options with the SM and then suggest that the scouts who will be going to camp elect an SPL for the week of camp. But it should be the SM and SPL to decide the solution.

Hi Mark, Very quickly before I run to an appointment. 1)Usually not. It depends on the individual council and the comfort level and ability of the presenter. 2)I have the kids talk to me about the fun of scouting, and then I talk to the parents about the importance of scouting and explain how scouting is funded. Then I explain the important role they play as Friends of Scouting. It has been very effective. 3)Who knows? The Friends of Scouting campaign is not a nationally scripted event. Each council develops their own campaign as needed. The posters you saw were made by and for your council and nowhere else. The problem is your council is getting their presenters the way too many units get leaders. They recruit by saying "we need somebody to do this". And just like in units, what they get is 'some body'. Instead, they need to 'select' their FOS presenters based on the skills needed to be an effective speaker. That alone would have solved your problem. happy scouting, Bob W.

I visit a lot of the troop in our district while doing training or FOS presentations, and I am very pleased with the vast majority of what I am seeing. We have a pack for instance in a town of less than 2000 that is doing an amazing job. They have a growing leadership team, they have a well trained team and serve over three dozen cub scouts. I was blown away by their Blue and Gold. Action packed, decorated, great food, great entertainment. There is another pack that is only 4 years old. They do a pack activity in addition to the pack meeting each month. Their numbers could be better but they serve a very small parochial school. But they have really active fun meetings and have crossed 100% of their Webelos into troops every year. All in all I give our local packs a combined B+.

There are a number of things to do in the summer. Start, as others have said by stting goals to meet the pack summertime award. Have a Pack Family Camp, take part in the council family camp, your local Cub Day camp, Cub resident camp and Webelos resident camp. Have a pack cook-out, An ice cream social, meet for a 4th of jusy celebration at a local park. Go to a rodeo. Have a beach party. Have a outdoor movie night. Have a pack meeting at the end of May to graduate the scouts to their next den level (we would give them their new neckerchiefs and handbook). Recognize the den leaders with a nice certificate. There is lots to do all year round. Bob White

Can't wait to see the finished product. Unfortunately our council service center is in the process of becoming a national scout shop. So things there are chaotic at best while they pack-up the existing inventory-remodel-and reopen. I'll give them a couple weeks before I try to order it. BW

It was in fact in the Twin Rivers Council of New York. About 25 miles North of Albany. There was a very popular Little League program, other youth extra-curricular activities available included lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, music, dance, art, fly fishing, hunting, hiking, and any number of other things found in most communities now days. Last I heard the Pack was still doing great. Why do so many people want to make having a real scout program sound like a Utopian situation? When you can't do it you say it can't be done and when somebody does it you thing its a fluke. The program works, IF you use it. I am constantly amazed by the amount of energy expended by some posters on this board to create excuses for not following the program, and then at the same time saying that the problem needs to be fixed. The program is awesome, fix yourself. Get trained, read the resources, share leadership with others, follow the program structure, deliver the scouting program that has been developed. Look at leaders like Eamonn, and OGE, They do just fine and follow the program without whining, or breaking rules. They learned it, practiced it, and put in use.

I was a cub leader for 5 years ending in 2000; I have been a Cub Leader Trainer for the last 15 years. I was a Cub Roundtable staff member for three years in the late 1990s. I know the program enough to grow a pack of less than 30 to over 100 in about two years, increasing it from three to 14 Dens of two-deep trained and uniformed leaders in each den and a committee of 14 trained and uniformed parents, where 100% of the Webelos crossed over into Boy Scouts (nearly 16 each year). I have already explained our outdoor program. We netted $12,000 to $15,000 dollars a year in Popcorn Sales. We met year-round and had some of the best Pack meetings you could ever imagine. In addition we went from one of the smallest to the largest of 14 packs in a rural town of 24,000. And we did it by following the program, and all of its rules. So, if you are trying to build a premise that I am out of touch with the program, I am afraid you are groundless Yes, the program changes, but it is not changed by volunteers breaking rules and making the program up as you go along. It takes more than anarchy to develop and improve a program of this size. You want a quality, exciting, program? You have one! It is in the resources and training of the BSA.

If you regularly drive over the speed limit and have no tickets, you are not a good driver. You are a criminal who has not been caught yet. As a cubmaster, I encouraged and supported the dens to have an outdoor activity every month. We did a Family Camp twice a year, nearly every cub attended day camp and resident camp, and our Webelos dens camped 4-times a year. The Cubs had loads of outdoor activities and we NEVER had to violate the policies of the Guide to Safe Scouting in order to do it. To say you need to is lame. If you cannot play a game by the rules you should not be playing the game. You speed regularly? What gives you the right to endanger other drivers? You want to take dens camping even when the rules say do not? What gives you the right? There are posters on this thread who are not even involved in the cub scout program telling den leaders "don't listen to the rules listen to me." What absolute arrogance. Telling others to violate the safety and program policies of the BSA while they sit safely isolated unable to be punished no matter what happens or who gets hurt. How cowardly. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Foto scout, if you look at my last two posts all I did was share a few excerpts from scoutiong resources that state quite clearly the rules and why the BSA has set those rules, as well as the explaination from the BALOO syllabus as to what BALOO is. From what portion of that did you manage to contrive "There is a lot of right in what theyve posted, but that doesnt necessary mean that if you follow their thoughts youll have a great program. What works for them might not work for you." Those were not something I made it they were the BSA's program explainations not my own. If you don't follow the rules then why should a scout have to do so? If you don't follow the program but only wear the uniform how do you call it scouting?

Acco40, Once again I thank you for trying to clarify what you thought I was saying, but once again it was unnecessary. It was not I who wrote "in his own unit" it was another poster who was referring to me. I would have written that a Scouter should not be a unit commissioner for the unit they belong to. A practice that I have never seen work effectively. You cannot be objective about the strengths and weaknesses of a unit if you are part of the unit program and politics. It is very easy to ignore any of the rules of the program by saying "Yes, in know that is what you are supposed to do , but....." There are no buts. You make the decision to follow the program or not to. If you choose not to, don't complain that the program is broken, because after all, you have chosen to be one the people to break it. This is a 'program'. It has designated, specific, elements all made to coordinate together for ultimate efectiveness. The only thing that stops any leader, in any position, from following the program is their personal decision to do it or not.

By endorsement the BSA means you cannot show any connection between the product and the BSA unless you are specifically given permission by the BSA. This means that when you apply for a money earning project, the BSA is making two major determinations. The first is can the unit do this activity. The answer will almost always be yes unless 1) it is illegal as in the case of a raffle, or 2) it is outside the guidelines of the BSA, which require that a product or service be exchanged for the income (Bowl-a-thons are a no-no). The second decision is can the unit associate the BSA with the money earning activity. If it is for a local Council/District or National BSA product the answer will be yes. As an example, Popcorn or Scout Show tickets. Another situation where permission will be granted is for non-brand name products or services. As exampled by a pancake breakfast, or a carwash. However you cannot sell a name-brand product with the BSAs permission nor can you sign a contract for a money earning project on behalf of the BSA, unit, or council. Proud Eagle while I respect your right to dislike the BSA popcorn product if you choose to, it is important to remember that in this scenario, unless you are the Scout Executive, your opinion is irrelevant.

Acco, Thank you for the kind offer to amend my post but that will not be needed since my original post was correct as evidenced by the official BSA resources on Commissioning. This particular quote is from the BSAs national Commissioner's Website at http://www.scouting.org/commissioner/home.html Commissioners must not be registered simultaneously as unit leaders. Some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a son in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, but their principle Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities. Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position. That fact that you know scoutmasters and cubmasters who are unit commissioners does not make them right. You can find current leaders doing any number of things wrong, that does not mean they are correct in doing them. The rule is very clear. Bob

Mark I am sorry to hear what happened. If I could offer some suggestions, Its great to have a Webelos Den go on a troop outing. It is probably one of the best recruitment tools we have. But these are still cub scouts camping and they are required to be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. Have the parents stay within sight of their kids at all times. The junior leaders need to understand that certain things always get brought to an adults attention, safety hazards is a good example. Making fire bugs wash dishes makes them better dish washers not safe with fire. First thing I would have done is taken whoever the SPL saw throw a match and sent them home. Call the parents and say your son was throwing lit matches in a locked cabin filled with other peoples children, come get him. Take whoever locked or refused to open the door and send them home. Tell the parents what they did, they will understand. This was a SERIOUS problem, it deserved a serious response. At the next meeting have someone from the fire dept. Police Dept. and the local hospital burn unit show up. Explain the hazards of fire, the physical torment of serious burns, the criminal consequences of arson. Let the scouts know in no uncertain terms that any individual not acting like a scout does not go on campouts with scouts. Let the people on the duty roster do the dishes. Teach the scouts about fire safety. Insist that scouts live by the law or stay home on outings.

Keep in mind that the G2SS is written for unit leaders and unit activities. See the opening statement of the manual. You are correct that Cubs and Wbelos are not to camp with scout troops at camporees. This is a fairly recent rule and unfortunately not all councils are in compliance to date. The water purification is not a violation because it is not a policy. G2SS policies are easily identifiable because they appear in bold type in the text of the G2SS. The drop method is a best paractices recommendation. The majority of water on Philmont treks, as I understand it, is purified through the use of back packing filtration systems not through chlorine purification. The use of 30-06 rifles have historical significance in heriatage of Philmont. Philmont is not by any stretch of the imagination your typical camp. Few if any council scout camps have the huge expanse of uninhabited land to allow for a range large enough to allow for the use of a rifle of this caliber. the 30-06 is also consider to be the largest round that an average shooter can use without discomfort, and all scout required shooting range safety practices are strictly enforced. If you are truly concerned about the safety practices being used by your local council or national you should make those concerns known to the proper divisions of the BSA.