Bob White

David Are ethics and humor mutaully exclusive? Is being ethical and being zealous inseparable. Your post appears to suggest both conditions. I do not see their corellation. In fact it would appear that some folks can be just as zealous about breaking rules as others can be about operating within the rules.

We always traveled as patrols. I agree that the patrol is supposed to be a clique.

Actually, according to the Venturing Leader Manual, it is until the end of the unit chartering year during which the scout turns 21.

The software causing the problem is not the local coucil's. The problem is in the BSA's national data system. The local councils are simply following the the procedures given them by the national office. They are more frustrated than you over having having to re-enter some of the information several times. Dludens in a PM (that he said I could share with you) says that he is the one who has exposed this problem. That is also a greatly exaggerated response to this issue. This problem has been known for some time and has even been discussed on the forum more than once in the past. Dludens contributionis only his choice of how he handles (or mishandles) his frustration. To lead a few posters in a chant of incompetence toward the office staff of a local council, whose only role is data entry and not data storage or processing, is mean spirited and misdirected. Certainly as an adult with leadership training he should have better tools for handling this situation than slandering people. The first time this situation arose I simply put my training history into a word document, and each time the local office or a commissioner called sayng they needed the info I attached it to an e-mail and sent it off. Gosh, I thing the last 4 requests have taken almost a full minute out of my life. Perhaps if dludens and others stopped ranting and calling people names, and instead took a moment to evaluate the situation, perhaps they could find a reasonable solution as well. You have to realize that when others are responsible for the solution, calling them names will not solve the problem. Neither will denying them the needed data to fix the problem. So focus on solving your end of the problem. That being, eliminating your frustration. Obviously dluden's approach of ignoring their request and calling people names had done nothing to reduce his frustration, as evidenced by his posts. So it would seem obvious that a more mature approach is needed.

Actually there is no "official" Wood Badge Patch. In all likelyhood what you have does not go anywhere on any official Scouting uniform. Could you describe in detail what it is you are refering to?

Yes my council has had the same problems, and no they cannot just discard it. It seems that you Program Director has been very open and honest with you and has explained that the problem is not with the poeple you chose to malign in your posts. I would suppose that since being courteous and kind there will be an apology posted soon and that you will cheerfully send the office the information they requested. It would seem that for now the matter is resolved. I am sure the PD will appreciate your patience and understanding.

Lets be factual here I did not introduce these historical people into a conversation about a scouters obligation to follow the rules. That was Beavah painting his support of ignoring rules as something historic and heroic. My poit was only that it was not law breasking that made these individuals the histroic people there were, and that law breaking was not what made them heroes. A Scouters obligation to be trustworthy and obedient is not based on the marches of MLK or on Ghandis civil disobedience and to try and hide unethical behavior behind their efforts is ridiculous.

Fine be frustrated. But there are a lot of ways to deal with frustration. Certainly posting that the office is incompetent and refusing to take a few minutes to provide a couple of dates is not a reaction that reflects mature leadership.

Lots of people have been arrested who didn't break laws. If arrest was the same as guilt then there would be no need for lawyers. You misunderstand by choice or by accident I do not know. I never said their guilt was the same. I said that both are criminals and both lack the ability to make ethical decisions To suggest that the the laws of segration are somehow on ethical par with the advancement policies or uniform policies etc. of the BSA is inane.

I am afraid that in your zeal to continually attack me you failed to study. In many parts of the new testament there is evidence of Jeses celbrating the Jewish rituals and following the Jewish laws. The problem was that the Jewish hierachy misunderstood the law. A good example is in the scenario you mentioned of Jesus healing a man on the sabbath. Jesus explained to those that were there that he was not working, he was healing another person. The Sabbath is there for humanity and not humanity for the Sabbath. If the purpose of the Sabbath is to worship God then how is the law broken by seeing Gods love heal a person in need whom he created? Jesus explained the laws to the people of that time because they had been straying from them. Martin Luther did not break the laws he pointed out how others were breaking them. It was not Moses actions that caused the Jews to wander for 40 years, you need to remember that Moses was on Mt Sinai with God when the tribes of Israel angered God. As far as why they were made to wander in the wilderness for 40 years you should really discuss this with your priest or minister for a better understanding of the that as this is not the appropriate forum for a religion lesson. And as you say rules are necessary, and while they might get interpreted and reinterpreted, it is not the role of the volunteer to do that himself or herself. Our obligation and responsibility is to follow the rules and NOT just pick through them and follow the ones we like. PS Beavah, I am not as far away from those classes as you think.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"It's just a childrens program". What difference does that make exactly Beavah? Are you saying that you reserve your ethics for adult programs only? The ability to behave ethically and funtion within the rules of the program should not be based on the age of who benefits from the program. If you can ignore some rules because we work with grade school through college age young people then I guess if you worked for a nursery you could ignore all the rules, I mean its not as if the babies would know right from wrong, so why should the adult have to worry about it right? To think that poor personal ethics can be excused because it is a children's program is indefensible.

So shortridge, you are saying that you believe that if you caused the office staff an extra 10 or 15 minutes of work each year that you would expect them to get on the internet and blast you for being incompetent?

Moses broke the tablets not the rules. What rules did Jesus break? Martin Luther did not break the rules he left the church rather than break the rules. The fact that you need to revise history in order to support your view shows just how skewed your actions are. MLK and Ghandi both followed "civil disobedience". Not riding the busses was not illegal. Not buying cloth that the goverment taxed was not illegal. They did not break laws, they chose ways to protest and stay within the laws. This is what made them so effective. That is not what you are doing. You are merely saying that each person gets to pick and choose what rules are important and ignore the others. That's hardly the values of citizenship that the BSA program represents or that is vlaued by any community. To use the founding fathers is a horrible discussion device and a failure to acknowledge what actually happened. Like Luther all the majority of the colonists wanted was to have representation in the making of the rules, (we have that in scouting by the way). When they couldn;t get that they asked to leave, as Luther did from the church, and have their own government. They did not set out to break the rules, when they could not change them they chose to leave. That is an option that is still available to BSA volunteers today who choose not to follow the rules. Unlike England, the BSA will not stop you from leaving if you unable to function within the rules of the program. Again you are incorrect in how you describe the function of a civilized society. The ability to apply the law is a task given to to the courts not to each individual. The expectation of a citizen is that you follow the laws of the community or choose a different community. One does not have to be perfect to make the conscious decision to live within the laws of the community. A moral character does not require perfection, it requires only the ability to make ethical choices. There is nothing ethical or responsible in choosing to say you will follow the BSA program and its policies, and then knowingly disregard them. (Especially when you base your actions on your personal likes and dislikes.) There is nothing heroic in ignoring the policies of the BSA, it is just poor leadership. No one is going to carve your face in a mountain just because you lack the ethical judgement to keep your word and follow the rules. Whether you kill someone or routinely ignore parking meters, you are still a criminal. The only difference is in the severity of the punishment determined by the community, but both actions show the lack of ability to make ethical decisions.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Who exactly was ever paid to "get it wrong"? Just because people or systems in the past lost the info does not make the people who are trying to correct it incompetent. Nor does having a temper tantrum and refusing to cooperate do anything to support the vales of the program that are taught vigorously at the trining courses that happen to be at issue.

Well said Alfansome. The only latitude the CO has is that which is allowed them by the BSA. They cannot alter BSA policy except in the specific areas where the BSA grants them that flexibility. Even the COs, in their annual charter renewal, sign an agreement that says they will abide by the BSA policies.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Perhaps the problem is that some charter organizations are choosing adults who get angry over trivial things adults. So the council has lost his records 5 times. Lets say he has to go out of his way for 15 minutes to correct them. The fellow has had to take an extra hour and fiteen minutes during the last EIGHT YEARS to keep his training record straight. Explain to us why this is worth him getting bent out of shape over? He has a troop he admits ignored the advancement policies of the BSA, do you suppose the council office staff ran around calling him incompetent? Remember the part about "help other people at ALL times"? Well maybe he needs to put his temper tantrum aside and be helpful, then move on to more important things. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I see you enjoy situational ethics Beavah. You see a law or rule only applicable when it suits you. You evidently believe that the community left it to you to judge the importance of a rule and as to whether or not it applies to you or others. I would have thought that if a law in the community was only for others that the rule makers would have simply written into it that it applies to everyone...except Beavah. In agreeing to be part of a community good citizenship requires that you accept the responsibility to obey the rules of the community, or to act to change them. Simply ignoring the rules within the community is not acceptable. For Scouters to first agree to follow the rules, then claim to teach citizenship and ethical decision making to others while openly ignoring the rules of the Scouting community is dishonest. They either lied to the BSA or they have lied to the scouts or both. Scout leaders are not the president of a camping club that meets once a week. We have been entrausted by parents to be a part of their childrens development. They deserve leaders that reflect the values they are teaching. If someone feels they can pick and choose which rules of the community they can ignore based on their personal convenience, then perhaps accepting the responsibility of teaching ethical decision making to children is not a good choice for them.

Again Lisabob, according to his post, all they asked for was dates for NLE and SM Specific. Exagerating the situation does nothing to resolve it.

Beavah begins with a false premise that I see the rules as moral imperatives. I do not. I see the the values of scouting that we say we believe in as the moral imperatives. These include Trustworthy and Obedient. I see the obligation as a member of a community to follow the laws of the community as a moral imperative. I see the responsibility to take constructive steps to change laws I do not agree with rather than to ignore them as a matter of maturity and responsible citizenship.

1) Certainly you did not spend several weekends away from your family taking NLE (a 90-minute course), or Scoutmaster specific, (a 1-day course), so lets keep this in perspective. 2) If the Counil office staff has to keep rentering training info for every scouter in the council they are certainly creating far more work for theselves then they are for you. 3) Refusing to cooperate is going to have more of a negative effect on you then on them, so I am not sure just who you are trying to impress through your attitude and decision. 4) Calm done. Be helpful, friendly, courteous, cheerful. Take two minutes and give them the help they need then move on to something else. You are making far too big an issue of this.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The problem is neither you or me OGE. The problem is the tendancy of some people to look for ways to break or ingore rules that they do not like, or that are inconveniently incompatable to what they want to be allowed to do.

Then again some people just like to call meetings.

How flexible are rules? Rules arn't flexible they are rules. People are flexible about how they choose to follow rules. The rule of thumb in a civil society is the less ethical the individual the more flexible they are with other peoples rules. In the case of youth sitting on bards of review....that is a clear violation of the BSA advancement policies.

Evidently we have another urban legend to add to the list. The belief that older scouts will not have opportunities to train, or mentor, or to socialize with younger scouts if you follow the BSA Troop structure is just a myth. Through their work as Troop Guides, instructors, troop junior leaders, they will have ample contact with younger scouts. more importantly though they will be able to set an example to younger scouts as to the activities and adventures that await them as they grow and develop in strength experience and skills.

A business that chooses to market a discount in order to attract the scouting community to shop there is very different from as scout unit asking for a discount simply to use the image of Scouting as a way to extract a discount from the business. If the business wants to offer you a discount let it be unsoicited from you. Units are expected to teach scouts how to earn their own way, and to set and follow a budget. The unit should be setting that example. Why is it so difficult to understand or to act according to the rules. Scout units cannot solicite donations but must exchange a product or service. One would think that we were an organization of millions of young people unable to obtain supplies by earning their own way. Many Hats Exchanging donations for recieving a product is not against any BSA regulation. (This message has been edited by Bob White)