Bob White

You cannot fail a SM conference. The requirement does not say "pass" a SM conference, it says simply "participate in" a SM conference. So if the Scout participated then he meets the requirement.

Sorry marc, but you are retesting, and that is a violation of the BSA Advancement Policies. The steps to Boy Scout advancement are 1) A Scout Learns 2) A Scout is Tested 3) A Scout is Reviewed 4) A Scout is Recognized The testing takes place prior to the requirement being signed. The SM Conference and the Board of Review are the following step. But reviewing is not retesting. If you want to make sure the scout knows his stuff than pay attention to the learning and testing process. By the time he gets to the SM conference and BOR the only think you can check is 'did he do the requirement as stated in the Handbook' not can he do it ...again. The way to keep his skills sharp are by creating opportunities for the skill to be used and practiced. You are given a variety of methods to do this through special activities, frequent outdoor events, games and competitions, as well as advanced skill opportunities in the form of merit badges. You can find the purpose of the SM conference on page 120 of the Scoutmaster Handbook.

My guess is it was a proof reader error. here is the problem with A and B. Everyone understands that A is the complete Field Uniform. But there are as many definitions of a B uniform as there are stars in the sky. Some say it is the Field uniform with jeans, some say it's a scout t-shirt with scout pants. Some say it's a Scout shirt and anything else, etc. etc. So the BSA makes it simple. For Boy Scouts there is a field uniform and an activity uniform. The activity uniform offers a unit several options for customization. But the Field Uniform is very limited in options. A Field Uniform shirt with jeans is not "in uniform", and while a leader should not embarass a scout for not being in uniform (or for any other reason), they should not alter the uniform standards and proclaim it the uniform of the unit. Let's use the uniform to create a feeling of team, an understanding of dressing appropriately for the occassion, and a sense of self-discipline and self-respect among other things.

Blaze reread my post. There is no violation in a scout or adult who is not in a full uniform.I am not aware of anyone posting that it was. The violation is in a leader or unit who say that "their unit's" uniform is a field uniform shirt and jeans. There is no Class A/Class B uniform in scouting. You are either in a BSA uniform or you are not in a BSA uniform. It is no different than if a leader or unit altered an advancement requirement. Leaders should always support the entire uniform. If the scout doesn't own the entire uniform then he should wear what he has as completely and correctly as possible and be urged and supported to assemble a complete unifrom. The Uniform is determined by national. It is a method to teach and support other methods and behaviors. But it only works if used consistently. Youth need a consistent method to learn. Many scouters involved in training have a responsibility to other leaders, and to the program, to be consistent in what they say and do. Because adults learn best from consistency as well. There are over a million and a half adult volunteers in the BSA. I do not know how you can be so sure that everyone of them has violated a BSA policy at some time. There aren't that many policies and they aren't that tough to follow.

People are funny shemgren, some do not learn to adjust to change. There will be folks who will probably have hissy fits for years to come over this. I have seen it happen in three different councils. Remind everyone that districts are imaginary lines that help to simplify council administration and serve local communities better, nothing more. Their membership is in the council. Moving district lines has no effect on the next pack, troop, or crew meeting and that is where the program takes place. Get a new District Committee formed as soon as possible and get your Roundtables running, then get a district activity scheduled and planned and go from there. The majority of volunteers will handle everything just fine. Do not sweat the curmudgeons.

Blaze 66, A scout wearing the field uniform shirt with blue jeans is not a problem. The scouts are encouraged to wear as complete and correct a uniform as possible. The problem comes in when someone says that the uniform the troop wears is a field uniform shirt with blue jeans. No one outside of the the national executive committee has the authority to alter the uniform standards. I am sorry if a leader would rather not know the policies they promised to follow. Sadder still is someone who knows the policies, understands that as a leader they have a responsibility to follow them, and then chooses not to because they find them inconvenient. Which rules do the scouts in the unit you serve have to follow, and which members get to ignore whichever rules they choose to? Playing a game by the rules is something they learn, or don't learn, by your example. If you are frustrated by me or by others who are always supporting the BSA policies, just think how we feel about the number of leaders looking for ways to violate them and still say what they are doing is scouting. It isn't dressing like a football player that makes you one, It's playing the game by the rules of football, It's not wearing the scout uniform that makes you one, it's playing by the rules and methods of scouting.

Dana, Camping is not what gets you into the OA. Lots of Boy Scouts who meet the requirements never get to be OA members. It is your character that makes you OA not the nights camping. The nights camping represent your outdoor skills. Let's not have people camping just to get into the OA. Let them be camping because they enjoy the outdoors and grow from that experience. Then let that personal growth earn them candidacy into the OA. You seem to be approaching this inside out. OA isn't something you get to do, it is something that others choose for you to do.

OGE, I'm surprised. This doesn't reflect the thoughtfulness I have come to expect from you. We also teach back packing, survival skills, pioneering and a whole lot of other things that paramilitary organizations actually do. There are a huge number of people outside the military who backpack, and do so without anyone thinking they are military. None one is going to equate a hiker with the military just because they both walk in the woods. It's a question of reasonable association. When you see a person in a scout uniform, most people think of scouting, when you see a person in camoflage they think of a hunter or soldier. Since Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are not allowed to hunt and are not para-military then why give the impression that we are. Are people wrong to think that? Not if that is the impression we are giving them. How we represent ourselves is our responsibility. Maybe kids like to wear camo becasue they like it and if a uniform is not required why not let them wear what they want. Because what they want, may not be in their best interest, or in the best interest of the program as a whole. As program leaders we have a responsibility to do what is best for both. Dress for the activity, if you are hunting dress as a hunter. If you are scouting look like scouts. If not in the Field Uniform then in the activity uniform or apparel that appropriately represents your scout unit and charter organization. Let's not give the public the idea that we are something we aren't.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

OGE I think if it is relevent to the activity its ok don't you?

That's great Laurie, I hope everyone has a great time.

Just got invited over the weekend to join the WB staff. Who else is going this year? Are you participating as a troop member or staff?

You asked what each troop does. That is what this troop does. They take nominations from the floor. Each candidate gets say a few words then the troop votes and the candidate with the most vote wins. You asked the question, I am sorry if you dont like the answer.

While I do not disagree with what OGE said, my concern is related only to its use in scouting. I believe, and BSA seems to share the same concern, that the sight of scouts in camouflage sends a confusing image message to the general public that encounters us. Why, if we do not hunt and we are not trying to seclude ourselves from enemy forces, are we dressed in clothing specifically designed for those purposes? There are plenty of other clothing options wil function just as well in outdoor activities that do not have a camo pattern and all can be found on sale at some point in time each year.

"First of all a scout uniform is VERY expensive." Who said you had to buy all or any of it new? "I have some parents that won't let their scout wear their uniform to anything but scout meetings and special events because they are afraid they will mess it up." They are correct to do so. The field Uniform is for troop meetings and special occasions, according to the scout handbook and scout leader training. "Most of the time we say if you have your shirt on your good to go." You do not have that authority. The uniform is a trade mark of the BSA and only the BSA can determine what constitutes a uniform. "Something else that discourages us from wearing full uniforms to everyting is the pants are not comfortable at all! We backpack and those pants just don't give you the full range of montion you need for some activities." The uniform is not made for backpacking, water skiing, caving, as well as most other activities. It is for meetings ad special occassions. There are plenty of other apparel made for adventure besides camo. "Maybe BSA should go to some of the military contractors and get better deals on clothing." How do you know that they don't? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think the BSA is far more concerned about avoiding the implication that we are a military organization then having the ability to play night games or have neat pants. Lots of kids play games without the need to dress as hunters or soldiers, why can't some scouts and scout leaders?

What about liability protection?

Flyingember, A few questions. 1. What is the purpose of camouflage apparel? 2. How does that purpose enhance a scouting activity. 3. What piece of camp apparel cannot be purchased without the camo patterns, at a lower cost? Allow me to try and see if I am close. 1. Camoflage is used for hunting to hide the hunter from his prey. For military purposes to hide from the enemy. To mimic military dress. 2. Since we do not hunt. Have no need to hide from enemies and are not a military organization, it offers no enhancement to the program. In fact it deters by confusing our identity and giving the false impression that we a military program. 3. Camo actually adds cost to any piece of clothing, and except for some sources of military surplus (which offers old and often inferior materials) is often as costly or more costly than current clothing available through a variety of retail sources without a camo pattern. How did I do?

Here is where you confuse me Dana "I believe that BSA is a basically based on equality" What would make you think that? Cub Scouts Boys Scouts, and for decades Exploring, was just for boys. Equal? There is a different program, different uniform and different advancement for each group. Equal? For years and years women could not be scout leaders. Equal? A charter organization can restrict its membership to only certain families. Equal? National excludes from membership atheists and avowed homosexuals. Equal? What in the past history of scouting EVER suggested that scouting was based on equality? It is based only on the values of the Oath and Law. "However I wish to see Venturers adults and youth be admitted to this and not to bend the rules but let them go through the camping requirements" There may be good reason to open membership to Venteurers but is this one of them? There is nothing stopping Venturers from camping that I am aware of. How would OA membership affect the amount of camping that a crew can do? It wouldn't. That is very unusual logic Dana. The fact that Exploring had a female president has no relationship to the membership rules of the OA. No one is saying that females cannot be an asset to a lodge (although I am boggled as to why you feel they can only be an asset to the lodge they are elected in?). There are females in the OA today. This is not about being female. It is that the OA is a Boy Scout program, not a Cub Scout or Venturing program. That's it pure and simple. I think it would be great for the Venturing program to have its own organization. But it took years for the OA to start. Patience Dana. But, think about the attitude that is being presented here. You want the rules changed because you want to get in. Wouldn't you rather the rules changed because the The OA wanted to let others in? Wouldn't that be better? Thank you for responding. Now if you could do everyone one last favor? PLEASE just hit the ENTER key ONCE.

I believe your premise is incorrect. I do not believe that exploreres were eligible for OA. Oa requires you be a first class scout and that requires you to be a Boy Scout or varsity Scout. Yes many Explorers were Troop members just as many Venturers are, but many does not mean all. These youth with combined membership were eligible only through their troop or team affiliation not through the post. At this point in time OA continues to be only for troop and team members. Any change should come from within the governing body of the OA. That training you speak of could come as easily from a local camping supply store employyee as from a Venturer. The employee has no more claim to OA membership than the Venturer. This was not an issue with Exploring. Why is it suddenly an issue now. Dana, you have some unique questions about Venturing, many of which seem to be covered in the Venturing handbooks and Venturing training, or avilable through BSA resources. What exactly is your connection and experience with the program?

But troop programs create a completely different set of problems than packs, and you don't suggest a different commissioner corps for them. What is the difference? How does having a coed program change the mission of commissioning? What do you se as the mission of commissioning? Since Venturing has the same mission as Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, why not the same district support as the rest of the traditional program?

The OA is not administered the same way. the youth executives have a lot to say about this. Why not ask the question of the OA on their site and see what they say.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I stand corrected it does appear that the BSA sets the membership rule. I do have a question however. the same emebership rules existed for the Explorer program for decades before Venturing existed and there did not seem to any concerns then about Explorers not being able to be OA unless they entered through troop scouting. Why now is Venturing supposed to be treated differently? I too am an OA member and I would not care if the OA decided to allow Venturers. What I do not understand is why adults should be involved or concerned. This is a youth operated activity ad it should be the youth member's decision. I'm not sure that this is something that adults should be concerned about or have their opinions weighed in the decision.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Order of the Arrow is a separate organization which determines it own membership rules. You can visit their national web site and see their decision on this matter. http://www.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-33.htm

Bear in mind that what is being said about WLOT is what WLOT was not what WLOT is now. The course has a newly released syllabus, only a month old, which can be done as a stand alone course or in conjunction with the SM/ASM Introduction to Outdoor Skills course. I think before you can determine if more changes need to be made you must first see what changes have been made.

We look at it more from a cost aspect. We recommend ponchos because of their low price, at least until the scouts finish the rapid growth that usually happens between 11 and 14 or 15. The exception is for canoeing activities when ponchos are not allowed due to the safety hazard they create. Scouts of course can buy rain suits if they choose, but they seem to grow out of them so quickly that it becomes a costly investment for equipment that doesn't always get a lot of use. With ponchos we also recommend that the boys get gators since the poncho tends to direct all the water it sheds onto the shins and shoes.