Bob White

Congrats Eamonn As my father-in-law the stone mason would tell you "Anyone fool can knock a building down, but it takes a craftsman to build one." Bob

solmate You are correct. No one (not even a council), can add or subtract from the requirements. So lets look at the requirement. 9) Show experience in camping by doing the following: A)Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. (You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. B)On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision: 1. Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 2,000 vertical feet. 2. Backpack for at least four miles. 3. Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours. 4. Plan and carry out a float trip of at least four hours. 5. Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more. C)On one of your campouts, perform a conservation project approved in advance by the private land owner or public land management agency. So can any camping be accepted? Yes as long as it meets the requirement that you stayed in a tent you pitched yourself. That would include camp staff, if you stayed in a tent, and you pitched it yourself. Can you count troop and patrol outings? Yes, if they meet the tent criteria. Can you require they be done on troop or patrol camps? No, and neither can a council. No one can add or subtract from any requirement, no one. This is not an area where personal opinion means a hoot. Advancement is controlled by BSA policy, you are correct in your understanding of the rules. You're doing fine Bob White

Ron, Since each patrol program group meets separately I cannot give you details because I am not in that group. I can tell you that they will be choosing a new "Great Experience" each month and using meeting time to learn the related skills and information for that event. This month it is a backpack trip at a state forest.

I never said the scout couldn't join A venturing crew in fact my exact words were "I made it clear I thought that if a scout wanted to do something different, more power to him." I said I would not direct a scout to Venturing unless he wasn't getting what he needed from the troop program. If we do our job right at the troop level the scout will have no reason to leave until he ages out. The current SPL is a JLTC staff member and so far it has not interferred in his troop participation in the least. What do you mean would I hold his troop obligation over his head? Thats ridiculous. That is the OA's rule not mine. It is not for me to hold him to that obligation it is the scouts personal honor that holds himself to it. Isn't it? Does it really matter where they go to get more leadership and adventure? No, what matters is how you get there. As I said I have no problem with the scout deciding. I have a big problem with him being recruited away from his troop by another scout unit. We are not recruiting boys into the troop adn keeping them involved in scouting for 3 years just to be a membership pool for another unit unable to recruit properly on their own. If you want me to send a scout to Venturing you have my full support, WHEN HE TURNS 18. He enjoys his patrol, the meetings and the monthly outing. He likes it so much that he wants more of it." Thats fine, take your Venture Patrol and go out again. Go Patrol camping every weekend, nothing in the Boy Scout program says you can't. All you need is a plan and the Scoutmaster's approval. Have a great time. See no need to be a Venturer to do that. Why is everyone so set on taking the older scouts away from troops that are meetingtheir high adventure needs? Now do you see why so many scout leaders see the Venturing program as "stealing" membership. It is not designed to do that, but some people both professional and volunteer turn to that tactic because they can't make their program work any other way. It is a disservice to both programs.

Do not confuse tools and terminology. NW scouter is correct. The Guide to safe scouting does not differentiate between a 12 yr old and a 17 year old. The age guideline for activities is just that a guide line. Although it does reflect some restrictions found in the G2SS and in other Leader manuals it is not in and of it self a policy or rule book it is a suggested guideline. Except when the host of the activity has a rule in place, or the activity has specific restrictions listed in the G2SS, all activities fall under the guidelines of the Sweet 16 of Safety. A Boy Scout who is properly trained, physically capable, has the proper equipment, and the proper supervision can do any activity regardless of age. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Blaze, Charter organizations charge you for meeting space when you are the unit that meets "there", rather than "their" unit. Unless the band, the wrestling team, the chorus, the basketball team, girls Club and the Natioanal Honor Society have to pay for their space then neither should you. The difference is the school realizes that those organizations are "theirs" and your unit has lost that relationship. Never select a leader because no one else will do it, not even if its your spouse. Select as a leader beacuse they have the characteristics needed to to the job. You don't want some body being a scout leader, you want somebody you select for their skills and characteristics. Never choose someone because they "want" to be the leader choose them because "you want them".

The pack and the troop is their business. They may ignore you now but you can be sure that has not been the case through te entire 50 year history. At some point they wanrted scouting thats how it got there. But at some point the relationship was lost. You know it is supposed to be there, they do not. It will be up to your leaders to re-establish that relationship. Until you do you will never be seen in their eyes as "their Pack" but as the pack that meetes 'there'. Which is better for the boys, and the program? When you are "their" pack, you don't have to fight for a meeting place and time, you get financial support, you get membership support, you have a parent that cares about your future. Too often leaders settle for bemoaning the state of the relationship, "well we send them an invitation to Blue and Gold once a year but no one ever comes" I have never gone to a strangers party, and I doubt I ever will. But if a friend invites me, I go. Every year when a unit charters it reqires the signature of the Charter oranization's leader, what is called the Institutional Head. Unless you are letting someone else inappropriately sign that contract with the BSA there is no way that you charter organization doesn't know the unit is theirs. Every year that charter requires you to have a Committee chair and at least 2 committee members and none can be Den leaders or other program leaders. Unless you have falsified that information every pack has a committee. If they aren't doing the job then replace them. But to try to operate without a committee is simply dying a slow death but dying none the less. The program works when you work the whole program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Charter organization relationship will be whatever you cultivate to be. The label of Utopian is nothing more than an excuse used to explain something you couldn't accomplish. trrops that don't use patrol method say it is utopian and cannot be done. units that don't use the uniform method correctly and can't get their members into a full uniform say that it is utopian, and units that don't select adults and nurture a CO relationship claim them to be utopian. it is easier to swallow than to admit you might be doing it wrong, just say it cannot be achieved. The downfall of that arguement is the vast majority of units who achieve it. Do not ignore your spouse and then complain that never want to spend time with you. Do not ignore the Charter organization and then claim they never do anything for the unit. The relationship is half yours, what did you do for it today?

Blaze I am only going to make these last two points to you, because you are at a distinct disadvantage since you are in the thick of the battle it is very difficult for you to be objective. First. Don't kid yourself that a lot of packs operate for years without a committee, thats just not true. Some do but not for long, like you are finding out, it is a sure fire ingredient for disaster. Let's say that 5 packs and 5 troops in every council operate without a committee, that would be a lot. That would account for less than 3000 units nation wide. That might seem like a lot. BUT you need to realize that is only 2% of units. So 98% of units do not operate like yours. Secondly "And saying well if the volunteers leave and the CO decides not to have a program anymore, all your doing is transfering blame for the pack's demise, from the volunteers to the CO. That's exactly right. The unit is the COs property, the COs Program, the Cos responsibility. Fail or flourish it comes down to the CO wanting scouting, supporting scouting, selecting and keeping good leaders. You serve your CO by delivering the program but it is THEIR unit. The CO has the ultimate responsibility for the program.

Most Venture Patrols are started as a reaction to the older scouts not enjoying the program. Absolutely not! Venture patrols are a planned program element to meet the needs of older scouts so that they continue to enjoy the program. "Same as your point that Venturing is started to save a struggling troop program." I have no idea where you think I said that. I said that older scouts who are not getting the program they need will leave troops to join a crew. Training is the issue here. If we cant train Troop leaders to develop good older scout programs, whats to think we can train Venture Leaders? Fix one, and you start to fix the other. No, selection is the issue here. Anyone volunteer who was selected for their position based on their personal skills and attitude can be, and millions have bee, trained to be good scouters. The scouting program has been very successful for decades training good leaders. But just like in the business world it is never 100% if the right person isn't chosen for the job you cannot expect training to solve all their problems. >>He would tell you that an older scout program is about understand the maturity of young adults Any level of scouting depends on that.

It absolutely is up to the chartered organization in the real world. That is the real world of scouting. Blaze if you have no relationship with a chartered organization and no committee for years, the pack was going to die anyway. The lack of involvement of the Co and committee is what has caused you to get into this situation. In an organized pack you bring in new leaders every year, not by luck but by plan. The reason all your leaders are ready to leave at once is due to, poor adult recruiting, program leaders burning out from doing the committees work, lack of long range planning by an administrative committee. This problem did not develop overnight, it crept on you a little every year, and either no one saw it, or no one knew to act on it sooner. This has nothing to do with athletics or other programs, nearly every community now days has a plethora of activities available for youth. It requires any program that wants to be successful to be "the best show in town". If it is not you then kids will go to where it is. It has been that way for decades. I was a scout in the 60s in a suburb of Chicago and there were tons of things we could do besides scouting. The Pack and the troop lasted over 30 years and folded due to leadership problems. I have run into some of those leaders as an adult and they blame, parents, sports, homework, the Vietnam war, penicillin, the invention of the yo-yo, the sun was in their eyes, yada yada yada. The essence of scouting is in every boy. Whether or not kids have scouting depends on charter organizations choosing to have scouting or not. If your CO still wants a scout unit then you can't close it. You can leave, that is your right. But just because you don't want to be in the church choir does not give you the authority to eliminate it. The choir belongs to the church, the scout unit belongs to the CO. It really is that simple. If the CO wants scouting to continue they will have to get involved. If they choose not to then that is their choice not yours. The Charter is not with you it is with the CO.

How do Venture Patrols have a similar problem? They do not draw away from troop membership, They are a patrol. Troops are nothing more than a gathering of patrols. On the flip side, what do new bodies have over already trained leaders? every leader in scouting was NEW at some point. You cannot rely on the current crop of leaders to lead scouting forever. You must constantly be bringing in new adults at all levels. He would tell you that an older scout program is about understand the maturity of young adults Any level of scouting depends on that. So if a troop leader understands that and delivers the program accordingly there is no need for a Boy Scout to NEED Venturing until he turns 18, because his troop, in understanding his needs, would be delivering a program to meet them. So where was I wrong?

Whether or not scouting continues is a decision for the charter organization to make since it is their pack, not the volunteer leader's. The only decision for the leaders to make is, do they want to continue to serve the charter organization and the youth. Group recruiting does not work. You need to identify the individual job, the skills needed to do it, the resources available to help, the individuals with the needed skills for that job, and to ask them personally to to become a scouting volunteer. This is the job of the committee. So the first thing that has to be determined is, does the Charter organization want to continue serving youth with the scouting program?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Barry, What I shared came from a Venturing orientation meeting, when the program was first introduced, with the National Director of the BSA Venturing Division. While I agree that the objective of Venturing is not to steal scouts from troops, far to often that is the reality as evidenced by your own post, Right or wrong, he takes a seed where he can get it. The wrong way is to steal membership from troops and your contact seems willing to do that. He also said that without troops, Venturing would die, at least in our area because the majority of them are started and feed from Troop programs. Again, my point exactly, that is not the troops problem. If you cannot make Venturing work without taking membership from troops then it is not being done right and has earned its death. Troops rely on cub scouts for membership but not until AFTER they are finished with the Pack. If Venturing is to be a viable part of scouting it needs to develop its own membership without purposely damaging troops for its own gain. Some Districts have learned this and some have not. Our District keeps trying to do it wrong and crews continue to fail. I like the Venturing Program, but local Venturing organizers are its worst enemy, they continue to try and rely on current leaders and current members rather than injecting new bodies and minds into the new program. It is a great place for older scouts to go to if the troop isnt doing its job, or once they turn 18, but a scout in a properly delivered troop program will have no need to join a Venturing crew, he will be doing the same activities in a Venture Patrol.

This is a decision of the IH and COR to make. They can refuse to accept an application for any reason they choose as long as it does not conflict with the standards and values of the BSA. The question they need to ask themselves is if the adult doesnt act responsibly with his own children why should we expect him to act responsibly with other peoples children?.

So Louie600 help me out with some math problems. You said you quit at 15 after three years on camp staff, but national regs for camp staff requires you to be 14 to enter as a CIT. So it should have been two years right? You were in Venturering and in the troop, but you have a son in Webelos that you have worked with since Tigers, so he is at least 9 or 10 years old. Venturering is only 6 years old? For you to have been in Venturing and have a nine year old son, it would have required him to be born when you were a scout of 11 years old. How could that be? You said you were 15 at the time, and had a month to finish Eagle? But You have until 18 to finish Eagle. The numbers don't add up. I'm sure there is an explaination but I don't know what it could be.

Again with few exceptions, If there are multiple troops in town and you are only getting one or two New Scouts a year, what do you suppose the reason is? That you have such a good program the boys are staying away in droves? Or maybe.......

A couple of points to ponder. Doesn't the effectiveness of the person offering the motivation as well as the motivation itself have a lot to due with the response you get from the scouts and their families? It would seem to me that the motivator has as much responsibility as the person they are trying to motivate. It is far t0o easy for the adult leaders to do a half baked sales job and then blame the youth for being "unmotivated". Not that someone who doesn't like the uniform, the handbook, the current advancement program, professionals, parents or today's youth, couldn't be a fabulous motivational element but...... (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Its not a book designed to last seven years. It is a tool to get a scout started and then to First Class. There are to many skills in scouting to get them all in one book. To say that scouts only have one book may be a fact in the unit you are familiar with but it is not true in all,After a scout reaches First Class the handbook is kittle more than a record book and there is a much lighter pocket record book that makes more sense when camping. No Boy Scout Handbook was ever meant for a boy to work out of for seven years. It's a great book to start off with and to refer back to when teaching the skills to others but a First Class scout should know the skils it contains. The problem seems to be that you want one resource to contain everything there is to know about scouting skills, and that book has never existed. Send your specific suggestions to national Attn: Joe Glasscock. Someday there will be a 12th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, perhaps you will see some of your suggestions in it.

Let me address the last two posters. First VentureScoutNY. There is no way that belonging to a small troop can keep anyone from taking part in leadership roles. The Boy Scout program is designed for every scout in a troop to hold either a patrol or troop position of responsibility regardless of the unit size. This only works of course if the scout leader uses the scouting methods correctly. Your problem was caused by the unit leadership, not the troop size. Whose has the ultimate responsibility to insure a unit has a quality program? That responsibility rests with the Institutional Head. The IH determines if the organization is going to use scouting and signs the charter agreement. The IH also selects the Charter Organization Representative and the Committee Chair as well as approves all adult leadership applications. The scout unit is a youth auxiliary of the organization, and like all other functions of the organization the success of scouting falls on the IH. Proud Eagle, Small troops usually happen for one of two reasons. First, it is a new unit, and all the scouts are the same general age and skill level. In which case you deliver the program level most appropriate to that level. Second small troops of a wide age usually happens when a troop has a rapid loss of membership due to weak program and poor leadership. Often the onle scouts leaft are the leaders kids, their friend, and a couple new scouts who didnt know there was a problem before they joined. The only hope for this troop is new leadership or a sudden epiphany taking place with the leader that they have been doing things wrong and need to follow the scouting program. Unfortunately this epiphany rarely happens and either the DE or Commissioner convinces the CO to get new leadership before it is too late, or the troop folds soon, and the process of rebuilding begins. A troop that offers a good scouting program rarely remains small. If I have a new troop with 5 new scouts this year. Next year I should have 5 First Class scouts and lets say 3 New Scouts join from a Pack. I now have a New Scout Patrol and a Regular Patrol. So year-3 I get 3 more new scouts, Now there are two regular patrols and a new Scout Patrol and a total of 11 scouts. Year-4 3 more new scouts from the pack. I Take my three new First Class scouts and seed them into existing Regular Patrols. I now have 13 scouts and three patrols. Year-5, we see three more scouts join. We know have a Venture Patrol, two Regular patrols and a new scout Patrol, 15 scouts. Year-6, Three more new scouts, Three Venture patrols, a regular patrol, a new scout patrol, 18 scouts. Year 7 I lose my first 5 scouts due to age. We gain three new scouts and still have 16 boys. This does not take into consideration scouts you will gain from transfers in or friends who join. So as long as you keep the promise of scouting small troops will grow every year. Of course you have to ask boys to join, but if you build it they will come. Small troops are not the result of too many troops they are a matter of program delivery. There are a few exceptions such a single troop in a town of 80 people, or a military base that is transferring families out and not in. But these situations are rare in the overall scope of the program.

Not a bad start, How about athletics, conservation, citizenship, photography, theater, cycling, orienteering, caving, shooting sports, High Adventure bases, community service, religious obligation? All are activities outlined in the Venturing Leaders Manual. Why should any crew be bored, as you said in another thread Dana?

A few things that KS did not mention is that had the 11th edition carried the CPR instructions as the 10th did, people would be complaining of it's inaccuracies. You have to remember that in July of 2001, nearly three years after the 11th edition was released, the Red Cross changed the CPR procedures. An easy and inexpensive way to keep the book current was to support the need for CPR knowledge and encoutage the scout to seek local, professional, current information. I will also assume that no one has mentioned the size of the tenth edition. It was nearly 650 pages, one the largest scout handbooks ever produced. Many scouts and scouters gave feedback that the book was too big and that a smaller book was prefered. The handbook committee edited the current handbook down by more than 200 pages smaller than the previous edition, focusing it's content on the specific skills needed for Tenderfoot to First Class advancement, with the intention of merit badge books and the BSA Fieldbook to supplement the information as scouts advanced in skill level and rank after that. This is not the last edition that will ever be produced. There will be many more to come, like with the uniform at no time will everyone be pleased, and bear in mind not all people want to be pleased. Without the abiltiy to complain some people would have no reason to communicate at all.

Hi OGE Page 333 of the Venturing Leader Manual, under the heading Membership Requirements "Venturers registered in a crew or ship before their 21st birthday may continue as members after their 21st birthday until the crew or ship recharters or until they reach their 22nd birthday." So in most cases the crew or ship member can stay in until, or close, to their 22nd birthday. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually OGE in most cases they have until they turn 22, membership is through the age of 21.

Rover scout, i'm sure you have a fine group and you obviously enjoy it. But correct me if I'm wrong, your unit (without) Venturing does not hold a BSA charter, It is not a part of the BSA, Your US membership is maybe several dozen, perhaps a couple hundred at best? Most of your program, goals, and ideals are already in the Venturing program. You gain several positive benefits from rejoining the BSA program by becoming a Venturing Crew. Dana, expects to solve the problem of a crew that doesn't do a good job of following the Venturing program by giving them another program to not follow. For as many fine characteristics the Rovers may have it cannot solve Dana's problems, and would not bring any program activity or feature to a crew that is not already available to them as Venturers.