Bob White

Foto Scout, That was a pretty nasty representation of what I wrote foto. Your verbage was dynamic even if it lacked any actual accuracy. Please site where I posted that 98% of units had stellar relationships with their CO's. You won't find it it isn't there. Blaze made the statement that "the reality is that a lot of packs and troops are running the same as we are", meaning without a committee or a COR. I pointed out that that was unlikely because #1 they can't charter each year with either and because even if the unlkely number of 10 units in every council operated that way that is still 98% of units that DON'T operate like that. So you see we weren't even didcussing CO relationships. I agree that not all units have stellar relationships, but that doesnt mean that most do not, or that at the very least most have some relationship. Keep in mind, if the relationship is a poor one, the unit is at least 50% at fault or greater. There are no benefits for a Unit for having a poor relationship with their Charter Organization, so whether or not it improves will depend on the determination of the unit leadership to improve things. Im not sure the forum readers need anyones advice on who to listen to. They read the posts and see the difference s in the success, styles and methods of the posters and can make there own decision on what to do with the information shared. It is obvious we differ greatly in our approach to, and execution of the program. I wish you the best of luck.

"I am finding that the endless "issues" that must be addressed at a Pack level (how to spend Pack Funds; planning the group activities; dealing with requests from District and Council) seriously detract from the basic intent of the Cub Scout program" Out of curiosity who do you think should be deciding how to spent the funds? Who should be doing the planning for your pack? What kind of requests take up so much time? Have you completed you rbasic training? BW

Actually and Acolyte in the Catholic church is far different from an Altar Server. Altar Servers can be male or female, adult or youth. An Acolyte however, is a cleric ordained by the Bishop and can only be held by an adult male in the Roman Catholic Church. Altar Servers are often designated to perform some of the duties of an Acolyte during the celebration of the Mass. Acolytes however are often given community responsibilities, as well as his duties during the Mass. Acolytes are in the highest minor order of the Latin church and are just below subdeacons.

We now have 6 assistants. (52 Scouts) Two oversee the two New Scout Patrols Two oversee the 2 Regular Patrols program, One (and the SM from time to time) oversee the Venture Patrols One is the medical resource (RN) One floats for now (he just joined last week)

Sorry AdrianVS, I thought from your first post you were asking a question, I had no idea that you had already made your decision. It seems to me that Fastart and I have said the same thing, it should be a mixture of both, That while they are LEARNING about Boy Scouts, they ARE still Cub Scouts.

But John, can you find anything in the BSA Handbook that says that? The BSA is the policy maker not the SM, and the BSA says you cannot add to or subtract from the conditions of advancement. Matua same question. Every service hour is a Good Turn, there is no difference. And where does the handbook require the PL to be informed of the service. Isn't the scout who does the service, without anticipation of using it for advancement, showing as much character or more as the scout who will do the service IF it counts toward his advancement? It is doing the service that is important on this requirement not who knew ahead of time that it was going to be done. Doing service should not require permission. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm simply pointing out that the answer is in the handbooks, not in personal opinions. You use the Scout Sign when doing the Scout Oath or Law, you use the Cub Sign when doing the Cub Scout Promise or Law of the Pack. You use the Boy Scout Salute when in a Boy Scout Uniform and the Cub Scout Salute when in a Cub Scout Uniform. The Webelos tan shirt is a Cub Scout Uniform. Webelos should use the appropriate sign for the appropriate oath and the appropriate salute for the appropriate uniform. So no, they should not permanently switch to the Scout Sign. Please do not look at it as an upgrade. Cub Scouting is just as important as Boy Scouting. They are different, not greater or lesser. That to me is condescending. Can they use the Boy Scout Oath and Law for Den meetings? That is a good learning tool from time to time, but they are still Cubs and should continue to pledge to the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack as well. The purpose of Webelos is to prepare them for Boy Scouts not to be Boy Scouts. BW

Soory Eamonn, It's tough to see parts of you past disappear. I hope your memories are happy ones. Your experiences there have made you a terrific scouter here.

For the AOL the scout neds learn about Scout Sign and Salute. part of that is not just knowing how to do them but when to. According to the Boy Scout Handbook The Scout sign is used when saying The Boy Scout Oath and the Boy Scout Law, and when you want a group to queit done and pay attention. The Boy Scout Salute is used to show Respect to the Flag When in your Boy Scout Uniform. The Cub Scout handbooks all say that the Cub Scout sign is to be used when saying the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack, and when you want a group to be quiet and pay attention. The Cub Scout Salute is for Showing respect for the flag in When in a Cub Uniform. So it would seem to me that the thing to do would be to follow the handbooks. Yes?

Tough situation but the right thing to do.

EagleDad 2 "would it be fair to say,with the "safey" concern for youth today,in our global environment;that "US" based Scouting prefers adults to be silent and let kids direct the action?" NO is Scouting today the guy watching the weekend SuperBowl,and the active adults more like the football "widow",being expected to be off to the sidelines? NO And with those two premises being nullified We have pretty much destroyed your entire argument. A true conclusion cannot be based on false premises. You are trying too hard. You cannot base your summation of an entire program over one tenting situation, plus you are making this more cerebral than is needed. These are kids, you need to understand how kids think and I'm not sure you do. Kids form judgements very quickly about others. everyone they meet falls into three categories. 1) People they like 2) People they don't like 3) People they think don't like them Very few kids this age understand, or have every been explained, compromise or second chances. This case requires adult intervention not only for the welfare of the boy being played as odd-man-out but to help the others develop more mature characteristics. The Scout Law says that a Scout is "Friendly Courteous, Kind". Are these scouts doing their best to reflect those characteristics? Is the 5th Scout? What about helpful, and obedient? Is the Patrol Leader being "Brave and Trustworthy" and standing up for everyone he leads, not just the ones he likes? Drop the high brow examinations of the program and the leadeship methods on this one dad and think like a kid thinks. RAF needs to talk to them like a mentor about the promise they made themselves in the Scout Law, and ask each how they can live the Law better when it comes to this situation. Bob White

On a unit level Laurie... The IH reviews the CR The CR reviews the CC The CR and CC review all other adults

Actually every adult position has a term limit in a way. It is 1-year, and is renewed or not at the time of charter renewal. I recommend that the COR, Committee Chair and everyone else treat it as such. Let volunteers have an annual review and ask them to stay another year in their present position, or if needed offer them a new challenge.

Thats great Hunt, but please remember it is the BSA's criteria not mine.

See page 88 of The Boy Scout Handbook. What sentence difines the criteria for what constitutes service. Would vounteering at a Cub Scout camp meet that criteria?

Lets not talk about the point of contact for paperwork. Above you I posted the 6 responsibilities in the job description of a Charter Organization Representative. Does yours fit any of those descriptioons, and which ones. Here is the problem Shell, You say you have a CR, but do you really, or do you have someone you contact for paperwork? There is no job description for a pack, troop, or crew of "the contact person for paperwork". There is no need for such a person. But a Charter Organzation Representative is important to the success of an organizations scouting program. Do you have one, or do you have a contact person for paperwork? If you have one, they do the 6 things listed above.

Shell, Which of the following accurately describes your your Charter Organization Representative: 1) He or she is a member of the chartered organization 2) He or she is the recognized head of the Scouting department or the chartered organization 3)He or she was appointed by the head of the Charter organization 4) He or she attends the unit committee meeting 5) He or she reports the activity of the unit to the Chartered organization 6) He or she attends the District meeting to represent you organization and attend the annual council meeting to vote on council officers

Geez beav, thats my point it's the same fun, just a different uniform. Wally

What does the Boy Scout Handbook say about service hours?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Barry and Beaver you guys are missing the point completely and you have twisted the premise that this was spawned from. The question that started this whole thing was... Bob,What are your thoughts about the Venture Patrols cross-registering as Venturers? The first benefit I see is the access to activities given by the Guide to Safe Scouting. It was built on the false premise that a Venturing Crew can do things that a Venture Patrol can't. That is incorrect. A venture Patrol can do anything a Crew can do and so cross registering is unnecessary. That became "why won't you let scouts join a crew?". I never said that. I said, and I maintain, that a Venture Patrol can provide the same activities as a Crew and that as long as a troop understands the need to have a Venture program for the older scouts they will not need to join a crew for those activities. They may choose to and they may do so, but they won't have a "need" to, because the adventure they want they are already getting.

The COR's job is not to be the treasurer or to attend the unit meetings. Their job is to be the CEO of scouting for the Charter organization. They are responsible with helping to secure a committee, which your COR hasn't done in over 6-years. Securing adequate leadership, and you say all your leaders are about to leave, and for maintaining a relationship between the charter organization and scouting. He should be attending District committee meeting, Church committee meetings, and Unit Committee meetings. Not so many Pack and troop meetings. Your COR is not getting the job done at any level. I'm sure he is a fine fellow but he is not fulfilling the responsibilities of a COR.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You can write me at bobwhitebsa@hotmail.com Most any poster can be reached by clicking on the Send Private Message line found under the users name in the left hand column of the post.

Has your Husband taken Youth Protection Training yet? Has any adult in the unit so far? Where the repoting or disiplice guidelines of the Youth Protection program followed? A tip for the future. "Boys will be boys" is a dangerous attitute. Boys will be men. How they behave as men is formed by how they are taught and allowed to behave as boys. That why here is Scouting. Do not wait. Call your Council Scout Executive and tell him you need someone knowledgable in Youth Protection to help you through this. Get trained. Most councils have Youth Protection training on line, have every registered adult (and parent) view it. follow the policies in the Guide to Safe Scouting. There is a reason why two adults are required at troop activities. Someone should know what the patrols are doing at all times. Good Luck, Bob White

OK realworld, by the book whatever you want to call it,here is where your trouble began. Volunteers can't "move" a unit. It is not theirs to move. Unit volunteers are not trained in how to start a unit, but there are people at the district level who are. Since the district was by-passed during the "move" the charter organization concept was never explained to the pastor of the church, the COR was never told of his or her duties, a commitee was never formed. This pack was lossing ground from the day it started. It sounds like you had a fine program but it was like a good house build on a faulty foundation. No matter how good the house appeared on the outside, it was destined to collapse. A healthy foundation is vital to a scout unit as welll as a home. There are administrative supports that must be solidly in place to insure the longevity of the unit. They never existed in your case. Even if you talk others into becoming leaders,unless the foundation is repaired, you are selling them a dangerous home. The Charter Organization needs to make a decision. They either repair the home or they close it, and let the families move to a quality structure they can enjoy. Get your DE involved. Train your Charter Organization Representtive. You are the scout program that meets "there", You need to become "their" Scout program. Good Luck, BW

Why do you keep bringing up troops that aren't delivering the program? Have I said anything about them? I said if the troop is doing its job, then older scouts don't need Venturing, because Venture patrols have the same adventure and leadership available to them. You cannot use troops that don't follow the program as an excuse to using Venturing to sap members from good troops. Go harvest scouts from bad troops to your heart's delight, those scouts deserve a good program whether it is through a troop or crew. But don't expect Venturing to be promoted in troops that have no problems retaining and developing older scouts. Go get your own members.