Bob White

Fotoscout as an example; Should someone in the Jewish faith be concerned that only people of the Jewish faith can be a Rabbi? Should that same synagogue want only people of that faith to teach their faith to the youth in the synagogue, would that seem odd to you? So if they wanted someone from their synagogue to teach scouting, why would that be different. And if they wanted to use the scouting program as a vehicle to teach their children about their faith, as well as about the shared values of scouting, where is the problem? In the view of the BSA there is no problem. That is precisely how the program is designed to be used. That is why the BSA fully approves of the Charter Organizations that choose to do this.

First FOG is not an ASM, at least in the past he has always said that he was a troop committee member. The SM is a 4-beader, he serves with me on the District Training team, we get along great.

How does belonging to the same organization make each person a "cookie-cutter image" of the other? I don't see that in scouting, I don't see it in my congregation at church, or even in my family. Just because two people share a common denominator in their lives doesn't make them identical in your eyes, does it fotoscout?

OGE Its both but what makes it almost funny is the order it happened in. Let's say you were told that you were not invited to a party. So after learning that, you went around saying "I refuse to go to that party". Well refuse to go or not, you weren't getting in anyway. That's what happened with the Unitarian Church. The BSA said they would not be acceptable as Charter Organizations under the present decisions of the Unitarian church to not follow the scouting membership rules. So since they couldn't be COs they went around saying "we refuse to charter Boy Scout units". Whether they refused or not, the BSA was not going to charter them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Nice try TP But I'm not interested. A person is known by the company they keep, so I select my associations more carefully than that.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"All I know is that several DEs and two Field Directors know about it and encourage units to solicit these funds whenever possible!" If this is in fact the case, then they are in violation of the national policies which specifically state that units cannot solicit money without the exchange of goods and services as specified in the BSA Money Earning Applications and national policies. AS a legal 501©(3) the council would be eligible for those same dollars and it would be highly unlikely that they would encourage units to misrepresent their legal status, violate BSA national policy, and compete for the same funds. I stand by my original post, this is a dangerous and questionable activity for a scout leader or scout unit to pursue. By the way as a selected scout master you are not authorized to represent the BSA or anyone else, What you did agree to however was to follow the methods and policies of the BSA. Saying that one is supposed to be Trustworthy and obedient does not make them so. Actions determine traits not words.

She was close. the BSA would strongly request that the money be used for the benefit of a youth program if not a scouting program. BUT, the money is legally the church's. The troop is not a legal entity. Something that several scouters seem to have a problem comprehending. It cannot sign contracts, hold title or license, or represent either the BSA or the Charter Organization in a legal agreement. Although many units due these things or allow others to treat them as a legal entity, the fact is they are not. The Unit is not a charitable organization. It is a youth activity of the charter organization. When Proud Eagle wrote that the unit is normally a part of the charter organization, that was incorrect. A unit is always a part of a CO . The Charter Orgainization is a required entity. Scout units must achieve membership through a charter orginization in compliance with our congressional charter.

A charter organization can raise money by any leagal method it chooses and spend it in any way it chooses, or within the contons set by the grant. The problem in this situation is that EagleinKY said that the CO was not involved in the process and that the troop got the money for the troop using the CO's Charitable Organization designation. That is improper.

Unfortunately for him, he is a doctor and not a laywer. He is incorrect. The BSA is a private organization and the ADA applies to employment, education and access to public properties and services. You are not the chartered organization, you are not Philmont. He has nothing to sue you about. Philmont can exclude anyone from their high adventure area and activities whose physical condition poses a danger to themselves or others. Contact your local council scout executive, he has access to the council's and national's legal division and they can correct the doctor's diagnosis.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

my apologies to all. The underlining was an HTML code error and was not meant to be there.

Eamonn is correct. But it all comes back to "Are you THEIR unit or a unit that meets THERE?"

Firm ground not required. The COR is the CEO of the scouting program in the unit according to the BSA.

First of all, you chose your words, I can only go by what you say. Explain this please. You acknowledged "While you are not supposed to go to businesses to ask for donations (the Council reserves that right for themselves)" which is correct according to the policies of the BSA. BUT then later wrote"The troop did request the funds." So you admit that you did indeed violate that BSA policy. You then wrote " there are many businesses and organizations that offer grants to charitable organizations." But the troop, as has been explained and as you agreed,IS NOT a charitable organization. You also wrote"The grants were written up under the name of the CO, which is a 501©(3) organization ("Troop 123 of the ABC Church"). A copy of the church's 501©(3) documentation was included in the requests." giving the impression that the church as the legal charitable organization was involved, but then YOU wrote "The church knew we were doing it, but had no involvement in the process." So if the church had no involvement, and the troop is not a legal charitable organization, then company you got the money from was indeed mislead. And is likely in violation of the tax laws covering such a grant. But how would they know that based on the information and methods you used to gain the grant. Suggesting you talk to a scouting professional or a laywer is not arrogance, it is a serious suggestion based on the facts you have shared. To suggest to others to do what you have done is not a good idea. It was not done in accordance with BSA policies governing the use of the BSA name or its money earning policies. Nor did it follow the tax laws covering grants to charitable organizations. You may have followed the letter, but certainly not the letter of the law. And I am looking at this from a positive approach. I am confident that you did this with the best of intentions and thinking that this was an appropriate action. But I believe if you discussed this with people who actual know about the rules of these things you will find that you were incorrect. Scout units are not charitable organizations and they cannot seek direct funding without returning a product or service as described in the policies of the BSA.

There is 42 gallons in a barrel, but the refineries get out about 44.2 gallons of final product (I do not understand how this is). Enter Bob (Cliff Clavin) White. As I recall from my chemistry days in school, not every barrel of crude oil is alike, not every gallon of crude can be made into gasoline. Different wells yield different types of crude, depending on that barrels chemical components differ amounts of various petroleum products can be refined or produced from it. So out of a single barrel some might become gasoline, some kerosene, some portion yields by products that are used for motor oil, cosmetics, rubber, etc. The gasoline itself is not as dense as the crude it is extracted from, allowing it to actual have greater volume than its host material.

There is no rule saying any adult or Youth member MUST be members of the charter organization other than the COR. However each charter organization is free to do so under the policies of the BSA. Most units do not choose to do this, but in fact some do. Charter organizations may be more restrictive, but not less restrictive than the BSA's membership rules, with some exceptions (for instance they may not determine membership by race, but may do so based on religion IF sponsored by a specifc religious demonination).

After your DE finds a new charter organization and they approve all your adult leaders, remember that the committee runs not by majority rule OR by consensus. It operates by assignment and shared leadership. The Committee Chair (with input of the SM and COR) gives assignments to the committee members who report on their progress at the monthly committee meetings. Sounds like you have the core elements for a very good troop. Best of Luck.

"Oh Bob, you're always jumping to conclusions." ALWAYS? I look forward to you trying to substantiate that claim. The fact is you said that your troop received that grant, and it did not. You even admitted that the money was given to the church not to the troop, and they could have used it in anyway they chose. You said you can solicit and that is not true. A representative of the 501©(3) may solicit. If a unit representative presents themselves in that manner without the approval of the actual charitable organization and in uniform as a representative of the scouting program they could face severe legal problems. Why would the BSA be against any unit making money? They would not be, as long as it was done legally and in accordance with BSA policies which state you CANNOT seek money without written council approval or without an exchange of goods or services as defined by the BSA. The registered 501©(3) is able to seek such funds but not you as a representative of a scout unit.

EagleinKY It is unlikely that any scout unit is a registered Charitable Organization officially reffered to as a 501©(3). To represent yourself as one is illegal, unless you have actually completed the needed government and financial documents and have been certified as such. For a company to give you such a grant is highly suspect and probably illegal at the very least they are violating tax laws. Your Charter Organization might be one, not all are. Your Council is one. You have given very dangerous advice here. A grant is still money, and a unit may not take money without the exchange of goods or services in the form of a council approved money earning project. Unless your unit is a registered 501©(3) you are using the name and images of the BSA without proper authorization and you are subjecting your unit leadership and Charter Organization to both civil and criminal prosecution. You need to talk to your council scout executive or a lawyer (or both) before you continue this practice.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Steve, Something that I hope was shared in your Wood Badge training is that the goals of your ticket are offshoots of your personal vision and mission. For any us to suggests goals, without an understanding of those personal elements, diminishes the not only the purpose of the ticket but the relevance of the goals to you as an individual. A much better resource for you to talk to about this is the counselor that has been assigned by your course director to assist you specifically for this purpose. Best wishes as you work your ticket. Bob White

For the same reason that the money raised by the choir to by robes belongs to the church and not to the choir Director or the individual members of the choir. It belongs to the church. Just because these leaders and scouts are quitting and joining another unit it does not cancel the charter that the CO has with the BSA. They (the CO) can continue THEIR scouting program with other people, using the assets of THEIR scouting program.

It takes a total of three people to make a troop committee, if you have to put figure heads in to come up with three positions then you are in deep trouble. Falsifying the charter by pretenting to have those people in no way benefits the scouts or help the strength of the unit and its ability to deliver the program. Dying slowly is still dying.

You seem to suggest that you can only have one or the other. Why can't scouts and parents come to the meeting and see fun, learning, AND organization? Nothing in the program is designed to prohibit any of thoese elements.

See page 120 of the Scoutmaster Handbook under Step 2- A Scout is Tested

Sorry you have problems BUT.... Don't leave your employer and expect to take the furniture with you, even if it was your work that allowed him to buy it. The fact is that technically the troop is not getting a new charter. A new charter organization is getting a charter and you are quitting one Troop and joining another. You are the scout program of the Charter Organization and the Charter Rep is the Chief Executive Officer of scouting program for the Charter organization. The CO and COR has the right to accept or deny membership in the unit as they choose. The money and equipment is theirs. If you were the choir and changed churches do you think you would get to take the robes and songbooks with you? You chose to start anew. So you will need to do just that. Although you are correct that the Charter Organization cannot deny someone to be a merit BAdge counselor, I have to wonder how they even knew of the person applying?

LFL and Exploring are a different organization than the traditional programs of scouting and are served by a totally separate support structure than those in place to serve Packs, Troops, Teams, and Crews. That support structure varies from council to council and is under the direction of a professional often located at your council service center. You should contact that person for more informationon how LFL is supported in your community.